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Interesting. I just wanted to throw it out there, in case it may help, that if you want to be a public school teacher, you CAN make a crapton of $$. It depends on the school district. For example, in the Lake Forest school district (in IL), public school teachers make $100,000+. In a perpetually-almost-bankrupt state, this is a point of contention. But it exists. If you'd like to be a teacher, check out each school district, in particular the wealthier ones (that is, if making more money is your aim). If the places is heavy on taxation (like IL or CA), this makes teacher incomes higher for that district.
School districts in the metropolitan city where I live seem to swamped with applicants. The job itself wasn't to make oodles and oodles of money.
As for the aide position I'm doing, making more would be great.
As for other jobs outside the education field, I don't know what I'm qualified for.
1. The first guy that I know majored in Exercise Science and he got teacher certification in Composite Science, makes about ~48k
2. The second person that I know, has a bachelor's degree in French, but he doesn't want to teach. He keeps saying something about how he hates kids. Consequently, he is always working minimum wage jobs so about ~18k
3. Someone that I went to school with got a degree in Spanish and he is a spanish teacher, he makes about ~40k
4. I have a friend who has a degree in political science, he is currently in school for a Masters in Public Administration, but he works at the university in one of the depts part-time. He makes about ~20k
5. A friend of mine, got into selling insurance and he has a double ba in Theatre and History, makes about 28-32k
6. A girl that I also know, has a BA in Psychology. She works at some sort of medicalclinic. I don't know exactly what she does, but shes not high on the totem pole. Makes about ~24k
That's really all that I can think of, since I really don't know too many people that went to school. If I remember any more then I will post them.
@Joboba - just wanted to make a note. just saw he's been working for 10+ years. if he is making $150,000 now, that means he was doing TERRIBLE in law school (bottom 25%). however, i'm assuming he did wonderfully so, those assumptions in line with the 10 yr thing, as a non-share partner he's making $300-400,000/yr if he's in Big Law.
Are you in law school?
Not all big law firms are created equal. He doesn't work for Paul Weiss or Skadden, but he does do corporate law. I'm sure his grades were good. He's one of those extremely bright, extremely hard working people who doesn't have the kiss arse skills to make partner. He's also a minority, so perhaps a glass ceiling.
Are you aware of how much $ 300-400K is? That's a sh@t-ton of $. You think corporate law firms are going to hand that over to some 35 year old guy JUST because he has 10 years of experience and is a good worker? Uh, no. It doesn't work like that. Those crazy salaries are reserved for the big dogs.
He might make closer to 200K but I doubt anything over that. When you start off with a very large salary, your pay increases are much smaller.
My sister is a relatively fresh doctor and makes ~ 170K. Her boss, who is at least 25 years older and the head of her department doesn't make that much more than her.
Yes, L school. and I grew up with a lot of doctors and attorneys as well as dated the latter group. And yeah, I repeat that $300,000+ is easily what a non-partner of 10 years would make. If you work in Big Law for 10 years and DON'T make at least $300,000--this is considered a problem and you would have left. Btw, this is actually less than what a comparable level consultant for a top firm would make.
I said assuming he did well in school and work and is a non-partner, he should be making that kind of money after 10 years. You basically need to graduate top 25% of your class to be hired into Big Law. Your reward is that you start at $140-160,000 in a big city... and basically work 7 days a week (lol). If you're not in a major city, that starting salary goes down relative to the location, but you still work 6-7 days a week.
I think you might not know how much corporate law firms are worth/rake in, which is why these numbers shock you. In a way, this is good, because it means you haven't been sued or needed to sue someone, lol!! Non-partners at Big Law charge $600/hr. This is well-known amongst attorneys and people who have been charged by them lol. A 1st or 2nd-year associate at Big Law charges $300/hr. However, this money is not pocketed by the attorney. It goes to the firm and attorneys are still salaried. Lawyers, like consultants and investment bankers, etc. have a predictable scheme of promotions by years. Their incomes at a top level firm are very predictable, until they become share-partners. You are awarded or lose shares based on performance at that point. I guarantee you, if you work in Big Law and stuck around for 10 years (means you passed through all the extreme weeding), you will all be making around that much money. You don't believe me, so I refer you to Glassdoors to check some salaries out. By the time an attorney is 50ish in Big Law, he will probably be making $500,000+/yr.
The income for your friend only changes according to other variables--such as, he isn't working in Big Law. If you don't work in Big Law you can get hired by a mediocre firm and start as low as $60,000. I know a guy who went to the worst ranked law school. No one knows how well he did or didn't do there, because he's a perpetual liar (lol). He says he did really great, but he basically got hired into a mediocre firm and started at $60,000. He is a litigator. ~8 years later he was making $160-180,000/yr. The law and finance have great disparity, relative to the medical world (less supply in medical world). So for the legal market, if you're in Big Law, this is good for you financially (definitely don't expect a normal lifestyle). If you went to a crap school and didn't graduate top 25%... not great for you financially, although you may be able to have a more flexible life.
Also, you mentioned he's a corporate attorney, but I'm not seeing why this would make it impossible for him to have that kind of income. You're generally either a corporate attorney or a litigator (btw side note, most litigators don't go to court)--because attorneys are so expensive ($600/hr from Big Law). Most people and companies try to settle.
Also, I think you're really surprised by the incomes because you're not in the legal field, consulting, trading, or investment banking. I'm not shietting you. Seriously, go to glassdoors.com and look up some salaries for firms like Kirkland and Ellis, Sidley Austin, Jones Day, Baker & McKenzie, etc. They'll confirm what I'm saying.
Your friend is doing terribly actually if he's working in Big Law IN A BIG CITY and making $200,000. To put it bluntly, it means he sucks. Now, if he lives in a very remote city, then maybe $200,000 is the adjusted equivalent amount there. $200,000 with bonus is what a 2nd or 3rd year associate in Big Law (in a big city) makes. One guy I dated graduated from a top 5 law school and works for Kirkland & Ellis. At 28/29, he was a 3rd year associate, also a corporate attorney, and his paycheck was $240,000/yr. This is normal for Big Law. He owned a nice condo in one of the best parts of town, drove a blue sportscar beemer (stupid stick shift kind), and on top of that his meals were comped every day ^.^ That's normal for Big Law--that being said, he definitely worked 7 days a week from 8am till anywhere from 10pm-1am. This does not mean he was the biggest hot shot ever in the firm or in his year. In Big Law, you don't have to be the biggest hot shot at the firm to make this kind of money. But you DO have to be good enough to be hired into Big Law (not super easy, especially given there are way more attorneys than demand right now).
And as for doctors, I'm from a long line of doctors and surgeons. I'm wondering if your sister's boss is in public sector or HMO. If they're surgeons and own a private practice, it likely means it's either not a large firm, or a new one, or is one that just isn't making typical bank. If you're in private practice as a surgeon, it's fairly common to make over $300,000/yr after a few yrs. But when you start out, you typically start anywhere from $140,000-190,000. Now, if you're a doctor, you make less than surgeons for obvious reasons.
If you think these salaries are large... my colleague is a partner at McKinsey (consulting group). He makes over $600,000/yr. He's only 35. He has his MBA. I have 2 alumni from college who only have a bachelors, are 2 years out of school, and make over $300,000/yr easy. They're Options and ETF traders. A few of my friends went into investment banking for BBs right out of undergrad. They started at $140,000/yr. --That being said, only the top candidates get hired into Big Law, firms like McKinsey, and become surgeons/etc (as you know through your sister, becoming a doctor or surgeon is extremely difficult. there are not as many med schools as law schools or business schools, etc). All these people I talk about are hard workers, and went to top 10 undergrad and grad schools.
I made the positive assumption and calculated based off the model your friend did well in undergrad and grad school and got into Big Law. I chose to be positive because I don't know him, and I'm sick of negative assumptive nancies all over CD. I think it's most polite to start with the best case scenario. If he's not in Big Law, then no one knows his salary. It could be $100,000 to who knows where.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobaba
Are you in law school?
Not all big law firms are created equal. He doesn't work for Paul Weiss or Skadden, but he does do corporate law. I'm sure his grades were good. He's one of those extremely bright, extremely hard working people who doesn't have the kiss arse skills to make partner. He's also a minority, so perhaps a glass ceiling.
Are you aware of how much $ 300-400K is? That's a sh@t-ton of $. You think corporate law firms are going to hand that over to some 35 year old guy JUST because he has 10 years of experience and is a good worker? Uh, no. It doesn't work like that. Those crazy salaries are reserved for the big dogs.
He might make closer to 200K but I doubt anything over that. When you start off with a very large salary, your pay increases are much smaller.
My sister is a relatively fresh doctor and makes ~ 170K. Her boss, who is at least 25 years older and the head of her department doesn't make that much more than her.
Last edited by soci3tycat; 05-07-2013 at 03:53 PM..
I made the positive assumption and calculated based off the model your friend did well in undergrad and grad school and got into Big Law. I chose to be positive because I don't know him, and I'm sick of negative assumptive nancies all over CD. I think it's most polite to start with the best case scenario. If he's not in Big Law, then no one knows his salary. It could be $100,000 to who knows where.
Like I said. He does not work for the top, top firms. That doesn't mean he doesn't do corporate law.
I should tell you the academic background of some of my friends and then tell you what they make.
It would SHOCK you beyond belief.
Especially since you think 60K is the absolute floor for an attorney from the worst law school. If only.
I'm not trying to be a jerk. I think your idea of salaries is a bit inflated. You would be SHOCKED at what lawyers actually make.
Like I said. He does not work for the top, top firms. That doesn't mean he doesn't do corporate law.
I should tell you the academic background of some of my friends and then tell you what they make.
It would SHOCK you beyond belief.
Especially since you think 60K is the absolute floor for an attorney from the worst law school. If only.
I'm not trying to be a jerk. I think your idea of salaries is a bit inflated. I'm Asian. Half of the people I know went to Ivy League schools. I'm in my 30s. I know what people make.
I didn't say I don't think he doesn't do corporate law? Big Law has both litigation and corporate law. And you don't sound like a jerk to me at all! You're much more polite and nicer than a crapton of people on CD. This place is filled with crazy people who can't stick to a main point. I like your posts, I've seen a few comments around CD.
But salaries at the specific places I'm talking about are not inflated. If you work in the public sector regardless of your degrees or extraordinary traits, your salary will always be lower. If you work for top firms in a private sector, it's going to be significantly higher. And like I said, these people I referenced in the passage above went to top schools and graduated top 25% in their grad schools. They are not the average person by any means. They're super when it comes to work/school. To become partner is no easy feat, and I'm not implying that. I just explained my rationale for someone who did graduate top 25% and went to work for Big Law. For that model, the #'s are correct.
and legal SECRETARIES at Big Law make $60-75,000. That's impressive for a secretary. At Kirkland, I've seen a few pull in over $100,000- that's crazy.
I agree with you that for many people, the numbers I'm using salary-wise will definitely seem "inflated" to the average person--because I'm only describing/looking at the top tier. Not average or below average. But that doesn't mean what I'm describing doesn't exist or isn't true. I hope you're not implying that, because if you look at objective data from even glassdoors or ask successful friends, they'll confirm what I'm saying about Big Law lawyers, private practice surgeons, consultants at a big 3, investment bankers, Options or ETF Traders certainly DO make that kind of money. And to be hired as one of those certainly requires you did really well in undergrad, grad school, and work. No one doing any of those things would be considered just average. The numbers aren't UNUSUAL though for people who fit the bill.
But for that world, my numbers are not inflated. I'll be starting at $140,000-160,000. And about ivy league schools, top schools themselves don't guarantee successful careers. You still have to do very well in those top schools, generate top test scores for respective grad schools which is difficult, then excel in those grad programs and land a job. I don't think the equation is as simple as just because you go to a good school, you will make more money. There are people from state-level schools who are successful, because they were ultimately able to perform at a top level when it came to work, or grad school exams/school, etc.
Last edited by soci3tycat; 05-07-2013 at 04:30 PM..
I didn't say I don't think he does corporate law. And you don't sound like a jerk to me at all! You're much more polite and nicer than a crapton of people on CD. This place is filled with crazy people who can't stick to a main point. I like your posts, I've seen a few comments around CD.
But salaries at the specific places I'm talking about are not inflated. If you work in the public sector with good degrees, your salary will always be lower. If you work for top firms in a private sector, it's going to be significantly higher. And like I said, these people I referenced in the passage above went to top schools and graduated top 25% in their grad schools. They are not the average person by any means. They're super when it comes to work/school. To become partner is no easy feat, and I'm not implying that. I just explained my rationale for someone who did graduate top 25% and went to work for Big Law. For that model, the #'s are correct.
and legal SECRETARIES at Big Law make $60-75,000. That's impressive for a secretary. At Kirkland, I've seen a few pull in over $100,000- that's crazy.
I agree with you that for many people, the numbers I'm using salary-wise will definitely seem "inflated" to the average person--because I'm only describing/looking at the top tier. Not average or below average. But that doesn't mean what I'm describing doesn't exist or isn't true. I hope you're not implying that, because if you look at objective data from even glassdoors or ask successful friends, they'll confirm what I'm saying about Big Law lawyers, private practice surgeons, consultants at a big 3, investment bankers, Options or ETF Traders certainly DO make that kind of money. And to be hired as one of those certainly requires you did really well in undergrad, grad school, and work. No one doing any of those things would be considered just average. The numbers aren't UNUSUAL though for people who fit the bill. I'm starting at $140,000-160,000.
As a person 10 years older than you, who had a lot of friends with your mindset (most of whom graduated from Ivy League degrees), I could definitely paint a different picture for you.
Top schools do not guarantee success at all. This is even more true if they only have undergrad degrees. You may be older, and with that I respect your personal experiences etc., but what you have come to know through your experiences does not mean that is the only way things always are. Your peers are not my peers, and vice versa. Further, while there is a significantly smaller number of individuals who go to top schools, over the years, there's a lot of people who managed to go to top schools. Not all graduates of top schools are the same, and especially not if the benchmark is undergrad institutions. Too much variability to say something for Ivy League grads is definitely "this way" or "not this way."
Last edited by soci3tycat; 05-07-2013 at 04:43 PM..
You've got to be doing well to not be cut from a top firm within the first 3 years, for sure. In Big Law, people who can't hack it or don't want to/decide it's better to have a more balanced life usually leave by the 2nd or 3rd yr. I think Joba might think I'm saying getting to those positions and being paid like that are easy. It's not. That's a miscommunication. It's not easy at all, and many people get hired into top firms and quit or are fired within the first 5 years.
I think it's safe to say someone who has stuck around long enough to become partner at any top firm (legal, financial, etc.) has brought in good streams of revenue over the years!
Last edited by soci3tycat; 05-07-2013 at 04:49 PM..
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so, those assumptions in line with the 10 yr thing, as a non-share partner he's making $300-400,000/yr if he's in Big Law.
