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Good to know I can major in zoology and be in the top 1%.
Kidding aside, many people in zoology I knew went into specialized veterinary medicine. I agree that many art history majors come from wealthy families. Although you'd be surprised, you can make some pretty good money if you land the right gig at world class art museum or sell expensive paintings.
Political science majors can also make a lot of money working for think tanks and campaigns, but those jobs are hard to get. If you can get into intelligence, many of those jobs pay 6 figures.
Do you really think that luck and where someone starts from do not play a part in where they end up in life?
Maybe those aren't the most important factors, but they do matter. Not that someone from a disadvantaged background can't overcome it, but they will have more obstacles than someone who starts from a better position.
I think his broader point is people use excuses for where they are. A lot of horsepower (and smart enough) trumps incredible brainpower and below average horsepower.
That said, I know several examples of kids that are screwed up because their parents are rich workaholics. So they have everything in life but parenting. I specifically cut my hours (and income) in half years ago to focus on our family. So yes, having nurturing parents that know how to motivate their kids to be the best that they can is the luck of the draw. But I overcame less than ideal parenting though horsepower. I think that was his point.
I come from the school of thought that everyone can raise their standard of living if they are willing to make a lot of sacrifices. If you want to be in incredible shape, it takes a TON of exercise work and self taught knowledge. The thing is not many are willing to put in the effort to look incredible (including me). It's called being lazy. If you want to out pace the competition, work your butt off and your financial shape will dramatically improve. If you don't push and work your butt off to be the best you can be then like exercise, you will be average. It's not fun to exercise nor is it fun to make sacrifices to be the best in your career.
Do you really think that luck and where someone starts from do not play a part in where they end up in life?
Maybe those aren't the most important factors, but they do matter. Not that someone from a disadvantaged background can't overcome it, but they will have more obstacles than someone who starts from a better position.
Obviously luck plays some part in where a person ends up, but I would never use that as an excuse. Saying that luck plays a huge role is simply throwing in the towel and not trying in the first place. I don't think it is helpful in any way to focus energy on things you cannot change, and you cannot change what family you were born into. I would much rather see people put their energy into improving their situation.
I think his broader point is people use excuses for where they are. A lot of horsepower (and smart enough) trumps incredible brainpower and below average horsepower.
That said, I know several examples of kids that are screwed up because their parents are rich workaholics. So they have everything in life but parenting. I specifically cut my hours (and income) in half years ago to focus on our family. So yes, having nurturing parents that know how to motivate their kids to be the best that they can is the luck of the draw. But I overcame less than ideal parenting though horsepower. I think that was his point.
I come from the school of thought that everyone can raise their standard of living if they are willing to make a lot of sacrifices. If you want to be in incredible shape, it takes a TON of exercise work and self taught knowledge. The thing is not many are willing to put in the effort to look incredible (including me). It's called being lazy. If you want to out pace the competition, work your butt off and your financial shape will dramatically improve. If you don't push and work your butt off to be the best you can be then like exercise, you will be average. It's not fun to exercise nor is it fun to make sacrifices to be the best in your career.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq
Obviously luck plays some part in where a person ends up, but I would never use that as an excuse. Saying that luck plays a huge role is simply throwing in the towel and not trying in the first place. I don't think it is helpful in any way to focus energy on things you cannot change, and you cannot change what family you were born into. I would much rather see people put their energy into improving their situation.
I was reading this the other day and I think this applies to this conversation:
Disparities in networth aren't the result of people being lazy or not having drive. It's the result of historical and systematic inequalities. The playing field isn't equal and just working hard isn't going to help. I think people like the "you can work hard and go anywhere" story because it doesn't sound as bleak as saying some people just have the cards stacked against them(and to shame). There's a huge difference in the chances for life outcomes when you're growing up in a violent neighborhood or your parents(if any are present) are meth addicts compared to someone who comes from a middle class background whose parents make 30k each. I mentioned a book earlier and something that I found a bit deceptive about it was that the authors break down networth by ethnic groups, but all the ethnic groups consist of different European-American groups. And they threw in Native American to balance it out I guess.
Disparities in networth aren't the result of people being lazy or not having drive. It's the result of historical and systematic inequalities. The playing field isn't equal and just working hard isn't going to help. I think people like the "you can work hard and go anywhere" story because it doesn't sound as bleak as saying some people just have the cards stacked against them(and to shame). There's a huge difference in the chances for life outcomes when you're growing up in a violent neighborhood or your parents(if any are present) are meth addicts compared to someone who comes from a middle class background whose parents make 30k each. I mentioned a book earlier and something that I found a bit deceptive about it was that the authors break down networth by ethnic groups, but all the ethnic groups consist of different European-American groups. And they threw in Native American to balance it out I guess.
There are cultures that kick butt. For example the Jewish, Asian, and Indian (from India)) family cultures. So I propose you can take a family from say Vietnam who is a 1975 boat person. That family didn't have to speak a lick of English. When the child arrived at age 12, their family culture (with ZERO in the bank) mandated their kids work extra hard to made use of this incredible opportunity.
That above story is a true one. He is my customer. In fact both the wife and the husband are both MD's now (both boat people and they met in college). They grew-up dirt poor in a poor neighborhood yet accomplished great things. Now lets take another culture that statistically doesn't put a value on keeping the father and mother together. They don't want to work as hard and they complain that they got screwed a couple hundred years ago (which they did). Sorry, family culture has everything to do with success. To fix the problem the solution is to fix the family culture. I fixed my family culture and so did my wife. We both came from poor families. I'm the only one to get a degree out of 5 brothers. Same with my wife out of 9 kids. Now our family culture mandate high performance. DD is in dental school, DS in a service academy and will become a doctor. They both work their butts off. So of course their are cultural correlations (based off of race). Of course you have an edge when you have money to start with. But I propose back that the cycle can be changed.
Some of these majors are interesting - zoology, art history, etc. Economics at the undergraduate level from the most prestigious schools will likely lead to a top tier business program that ends up being a feeder for investment banking.
Still, these degrees aren't created equally, and none are a free ride to the 1%. While economics may have a few people excelling at the far right end of the bell curve, I would also wager that it has more people on the left side as well than majors like accounting or engineering, which probably have a more equal distribution of income. Just because you major in one of these degrees certainly doesn't mean you will reach the 1% or even have an average income.
I think not enough emphasis is placed on WHERE one grows up, as well as too much emphasis based on the family's socioeconomic status. I'm currently in VA, and I would rather have my child grow up in Fairfax/Loudoun as middle class or even lower class than to grow up wealthier in southwest VA, where there are fewer opportunities, lower quality schools, few jobs, etc. The same kid with equal amounts of drive will have far more resources available to them in wealthier areas than poorer ones.
There are cultures that kick butt. For example the Jewish, Asian, and Indian (from India)) family cultures. So I propose you can take a family from say Vietnam who is a 1975 boat person. That family didn't have to speak a lick of English. When the child arrived at age 12, their family culture (with ZERO in the bank) mandated their kids work extra hard to made use of this incredible opportunity.
That above story is a true one. He is my customer. In fact both the wife and the husband are both MD's now (both boat people and they met in college). They grew-up dirt poor in a poor neighborhood yet accomplished great things. Now lets take another culture that statistically doesn't put a value on keeping the father and mother together. They don't want to work as hard and they complain that they got screwed a couple hundred years ago (which they did). Sorry, family culture has everything to do with success. To fix the problem the solution is to fix the family culture. I fixed my family culture and so did my wife. We both came from poor families. I'm the only one to get a degree out of 5 brothers. Same with my wife out of 9 kids. Now our family culture mandate high performance. DD is in dental school, DS in a service academy and will become a doctor. They both work their butts off. So of course their are cultural correlations (based off of race). Of course you have an edge when you have money to start with. But I propose back that the cycle can be changed.
I highly disagree. What you're saying subscribes to the notion of the "model minority" and implies that certain groups are destructive(if the complaining comment wasn't outright racist). What you describe is the result of SES and current immigration policies. SES is positively correlated with life outcomes including the life outcomes of children among all ethnic groups. Current immigration policy is highly selective towards who is allowed to come to the US and obtain an H-1B visa. So basically those who are highly educated or have the potential to obtain higher credentials which is why it always seems like you see highly educated immigrants everywhere; it's the result of policy towards immigration. Compared to AA who were brought over here against their will and Latinos who live in volatile developing countries south of the US, most Asian Americans immigrate here of their own free will and comprise of the small group between AA, Latinos, and Asian and have the fewest numbers living in poverty. And just to show you how off your stereotype is consider this: there are more Vietnamese Americans without high school diplomas than there are from the other major ethnic groups. In their home countries, a lot of the live in poverty.
I highly disagree. What you're saying subscribes to the notion of the "model minority" and implies that certain groups are destructive(if the complaining comment wasn't outright racist). What you describe is the result of SES and current immigration policies. SES is positively correlated with life outcomes including the life outcomes of children among all ethnic groups. Current immigration policy is highly selective towards who is allowed to come to the US and obtain an H-1B visa. So basically those who are highly educated or have the potential to obtain higher credentials which is why it always seems like you see highly educated immigrants everywhere; it's the result of policy towards immigration. Compared to AA who were brought over here against their will and Latinos who live in volatile developing countries south of the US, most Asian Americans immigrate here of their own free will and comprise of the small group between AA, Latinos, and Asian and have the fewest numbers living in poverty. And just to show you how off your stereotype is consider this: there are more Vietnamese Americans without high school diplomas than there are from the other major ethnic groups. In their home countries, a lot of the live in poverty.
I half agree, half disagree.
I've seen those statistics before. I'm pretty sure they incorporate ALL Vietnamese Americans, including those who are first generation.
So, I would say, without any scientific basis, that MN is right to an extent. If there were ten Vietnamese families and ten families of another non-Asian ethnicity living in the same low income neighborhood (which is very common in CA) in the 80s and 90s, I'd put my money on the Vietnamese kids graduating college at a much higher rate.
Education is pretty highly valued in most of Asia. I would say valued to a fault definitely. Even by those first generations who don't have any.
Some countries like Laos and Cambodia don't have the educational passion of most of those other Asian countries. But I wouldn't put Vietnam in that mix.
Anyway, it's kind of a moot point because things are-a-changin. Over there in Asia, the value of a college degree has become devalued due to saturation probably even MORE so than America. So, the next generation of children may not be pushed as hard.
I highly disagree. What you're saying subscribes to the notion of the "model minority" and implies that certain groups are destructive(if the complaining comment wasn't outright racist). What you describe is the result of SES and current immigration policies. SES is positively correlated with life outcomes including the life outcomes of children among all ethnic groups. Current immigration policy is highly selective towards who is allowed to come to the US and obtain an H-1B visa. So basically those who are highly educated or have the potential to obtain higher credentials which is why it always seems like you see highly educated immigrants everywhere; it's the result of policy towards immigration. Compared to AA who were brought over here against their will and Latinos who live in volatile developing countries south of the US, most Asian Americans immigrate here of their own free will and comprise of the small group between AA, Latinos, and Asian and have the fewest numbers living in poverty. And just to show you how off your stereotype is consider this: there are more Vietnamese Americans without high school diplomas than there are from the other major ethnic groups. In their home countries, a lot of the live in poverty.
The two Vietnamese families that I know of came by boat, poor, and uneducated had a family culture that mandated performance. They are both MD's even though they could not speak English at the age of 12 (a.k.a. "boat people"). If the balance of the Vietnamese Americans live in poverty, then those specific families prevailed because they figured it out. Without question there is a subset of AA's that also kick butt. I am not speaking of absolutes.
Like it or not, there is a reason for stereotypes. Russians and New Yorkers can be forward, Midwesterner's are often aimiable, women can multitask better than men and are more sensitive, etc. And yes, the on average the Jewish community succeeds in business. It's their culture.
So I propose their factually is a difference in family cultures across different ethnicities including how some groups value their education and grades. It's not cool in some cultures to do well in school. They are where they are because of it. To think that cultures don't play a role in economics is foolish. This has nothing to do with skin color. It has to do with cultures. So the key to reversing someones chances for success is to change their family culture.
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If you want to out pace the competition, work your butt off and your financial shape will dramatically improve. If you don't push and work your butt off to be the best you can be then like exercise, you will be average. It's not fun to exercise nor is it fun to make sacrifices to be the best in your career.
Without question there is a subset of AA's that also kick butt. I am not speaking of absolutes. 
