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This is more or less borne out by my own experience. I have about half my high school class on Facebook. The ones who are better off went to college. The ones who are struggling or in and out of jail did not.
Like it or not, college is a class marker. The biggest benefits for me were not the education, which I could have gotten from books and the internet (although college made me better at learning on my own), but the social circles it connected me to.
I am very much aware of the college cost problem and the student loan issue & work to alleviate them every day.
I agree with all of this!
Still, there is room for discussion. Statistics measure central tendency. There are outlying cases.
Let's say you're going to inherit the family business, a pizza place. It's a done deal. It's what you want to do too. No rebellion. The restaurant is not a gold mine, but you can clear $50,000 a year. Is it worth taking on $200,000 in college debt, just to get a degree you'll never use and work at the pizza place as soon as you graduate? What if you marry young, and your wife wants to make the pizza place her job too? $400,000 debt between the two of you worth it? Or maybe you are unemployable, for any number of reasons. Maybe you were a 14-year old school shooter. They send you to Juvey. You get out when you're 21. You'll always need counseling. Your employment will always be surpervised, if you can get anybody to hire you. Is a $200,000 debt, which won't get you anywhere in life anyway, worth it?
No reasonable person disagrees with your post. You said it all, and said it well! But outside the central tendency there are other stories.
Still, there is room for discussion. Statistics measure central tendency. There are outlying cases.
Let's say you're going to inherit the family business, a pizza place. It's a done deal. It's what you want to do too. No rebellion. The restaurant is not a gold mine, but you can clear $50,000 a year. Is it worth taking on $200,000 in college debt, just to get a degree you'll never use and work at the pizza place as soon as you graduate? What if you marry young, and your wife wants to make the pizza place her job too? $400,000 debt between the two of you worth it? Or maybe you are unemployable, for any number of reasons. Maybe you were a 14-year old school shooter. They send you to Juvey. You get out when you're 21. You'll always need counseling. Your employment will always be surpervised, if you can get anybody to hire you. Is a $200,000 debt, which won't get you anywhere in life anyway, worth it?
No reasonable person disagrees with your post. You said it all, and said it well! But outside the central tendency there are other stories.
Still, there is room for discussion. Statistics measure central tendency. There are outlying cases.
Let's say you're going to inherit the family business, a pizza place. It's a done deal. It's what you want to do too. No rebellion. The restaurant is not a gold mine, but you can clear $50,000 a year. Is it worth taking on $200,000 in college debt, just to get a degree you'll never use and work at the pizza place as soon as you graduate? What if you marry young, and your wife wants to make the pizza place her job too? $400,000 debt between the two of you worth it? Or maybe you are unemployable, for any number of reasons. Maybe you were a 14-year old school shooter. They send you to Juvey. You get out when you're 21. You'll always need counseling. Your employment will always be surpervised, if you can get anybody to hire you. Is a $200,000 debt, which won't get you anywhere in life anyway, worth it?
No reasonable person disagrees with your post. You said it all, and said it well! But outside the central tendency there are other stories.
What the person in the pizza restaurant scenario would probably want is a business degree so they could more expertly manage the business. $200k debt isn't necessary since the prestige factor would probably not matter to this person. A community college to state university transfer would put your all-in cost at $30-40k. (plus books, maybe another $5k all-in) That's about $10-12k a year, which someone clearing $50k from a restaurant job could probably pay out of pocket with no need for loans.
What the person in the pizza restaurant scenario would probably want is a business degree so they could more expertly manage the business. $200k debt isn't necessary since the prestige factor would probably not matter to this person. A community college to state university transfer would put your all-in cost at $30-40k. (plus books, maybe another $5k all-in) That's about $10-12k a year, which someone clearing $50k from a restaurant job could probably pay out of pocket with no need for loans.
1) I agreed with everything you said in your original post.
2) You're trying to extend on it, and prove that in EVERY case college is a wise decision. That's not true.
Not sure what the issue is here. College is the right decision for most people, as you proved. Not for everybody.
There's what, 300 million people in the country? Very unlikely that any life choice is right for everybody, without exception.
In the end the question of whether college is worth it depends on what you planned to get out of it going in. If you wanted to be an <insert profession here> and the degree was required, then it was worth it. But if you just went to college to piddle around, major in miscellaneous. Then it probably wasn't. The vast majority who went when I attended back in the dark ages came in with a plan. Those who didn't either found one real quick or they weren't there the next year, so they didn't have to worry about big debt either.
High schools are not pushing college to the exclusion of everything else. One high school I visited this year had just had a presentation by a representative of the plumber's union touting the advantages of that career.
I appreciate that you've visited a HS that had a trade representative talking about their career path.
But in my experience, HS's in general are still heavily pushing the "gotta' go to college if you're gonna' make anything of yourself" agenda.
How do I know? because I, and a number of my friends across various industries/trades, have been trying to get funding and support for VOTEC's and Trade training programs for decades without success.
Indeed, one of my group with a multi-state HVAC distributorship/wholesaler sits on a Governor's Council for education. His home state has a shortage right now for approx. 1,200 HVAC technicians, with pay scales ranging from $25/hr through over $50/hr (supervisory and programming level techs). He's been trying to get the state to support opening up a VOTEC utilizing existing CCollege facilities … which would require locating and hiring qualified instructors, and appropriate teaching aids/equipment. IOW, a pretty nominal investment with a very good upside outcome potential for grads. After 10 years of trying to get the state on board with any form or training program, no state aid, no school district, nobody in the education biz is interested in touching such a program.
The value of such a program would be enormous. It's not just his home state that is experiencing this HVAC tech shortage, but many others. A campus with housing readily available and reasonable out-of-state tuition rates could be expected to attract students from other states, too.
It's not just this one industry. Having been in the automotive biz for over 50 years, we've been decrying the trend away from automotive/diesel/farm equipment/stationary equipment techs for at least 35 years.
Many VOTECH's which trained these trades have either dropped the programs they had years ago or are pretty weak for-profit ventures that simply don't survive very well. For example, the operators of the VOTECH in Laramie … which had an enrollment of over 1,000 students and many more nationwide at other facilities … went bankrupt earlier last year. And their tuition rivalled college programs for white collar programs; ie, it's wasn't inexpensive to learn how to be a tech in these fields.
Again, the pay rates awaiting grads were and remain pretty good. One of the regional farm equipment multi-outlet dealerships was recently advertising that they had tech job openings, and the "average" tech in their shops was knocking down $100K/year + benefits (health, sick leave, vacation, retirement). Judging from their ads, it took them almost a year to fill the then available job openings. But for folk willing to relocate in rural USA major towns, this was a tremendous opportunity. That was a pretty high earnings level for the areas.
The bottom line is that I see little effort on the part of HS programs today to support the trades. Quite the contrary, everybody seems to be on the "college prep" program and trades are still looked down upon except as a last resort for the HS drop-outs to try to make a living so as not to be a burden on society. And the HS counselors I've visited with suggest that prospective drop-outs "hang on" long enough to get that HS diploma (or GED) so that they can apply to the military before considering a blue collar trade career. One of their biggest selling points for the military? "the military will give you your college education funds as part of their benefits/compensation package".
I was a terrible student.... Still went to college and barely graduated with a computer science degree. I say it's worth it but like anything else... Choose wisely why to invest. Certainly doing better than my childhood friends that didn't have the opportunity. I am thankful.
I also believe that out school system has failed our students. It produces adults that are not ready to do anything but take tests for college prep.
I appreciate that you've visited a HS that had a trade representative talking about their career path.
But in my experience, HS's in general are still heavily pushing the "gotta' go to college if you're gonna' make anything of yourself" agenda.
How do I know? because I, and a number of my friends across various industries/trades, have been trying to get funding and support for VOTEC's and Trade training programs for decades without success.
Indeed, one of my group with a multi-state HVAC distributorship/wholesaler sits on a Governor's Council for education. His home state has a shortage right now for approx. 1,200 HVAC technicians, with pay scales ranging from $25/hr through over $50/hr (supervisory and programming level techs). He's been trying to get the state to support opening up a VOTEC utilizing existing CCollege facilities … which would require locating and hiring qualified instructors, and appropriate teaching aids/equipment. IOW, a pretty nominal investment with a very good upside outcome potential for grads. After 10 years of trying to get the state on board with any form or training program, no state aid, no school district, nobody in the education biz is interested in touching such a program.
The value of such a program would be enormous. It's not just his home state that is experiencing this HVAC tech shortage, but many others. A campus with housing readily available and reasonable out-of-state tuition rates could be expected to attract students from other states, too.
It's not just this one industry. Having been in the automotive biz for over 50 years, we've been decrying the trend away from automotive/diesel/farm equipment/stationary equipment techs for at least 35 years.
Many VOTECH's which trained these trades have either dropped the programs they had years ago or are pretty weak for-profit ventures that simply don't survive very well. For example, the operators of the VOTECH in Laramie … which had an enrollment of over 1,000 students and many more nationwide at other facilities … went bankrupt earlier last year. And their tuition rivalled college programs for white collar programs; ie, it's wasn't inexpensive to learn how to be a tech in these fields.
Again, the pay rates awaiting grads were and remain pretty good. One of the regional farm equipment multi-outlet dealerships was recently advertising that they had tech job openings, and the "average" tech in their shops was knocking down $100K/year + benefits (health, sick leave, vacation, retirement). Judging from their ads, it took them almost a year to fill the then available job openings. But for folk willing to relocate in rural USA major towns, this was a tremendous opportunity. That was a pretty high earnings level for the areas.
The bottom line is that I see little effort on the part of HS programs today to support the trades. Quite the contrary, everybody seems to be on the "college prep" program and trades are still looked down upon except as a last resort for the HS drop-outs to try to make a living so as not to be a burden on society. And the HS counselors I've visited with suggest that prospective drop-outs "hang on" long enough to get that HS diploma (or GED) so that they can apply to the military before considering a blue collar trade career. One of their biggest selling points for the military? "the military will give you your college education funds as part of their benefits/compensation package".
What I've learned is that high schools have a lot on their plates. They are under pressure from numerous directions to do all kinds of things. I doubt that many of them actively want to exclude any career paths... but you are just one stakeholder among many putting pressure on them.
They're under pressure to increase standardized test scores, AP offerings, college dual credit, adopt new technology, respond to district, city, county, state, and federal initiatives and mandates, running a ton of extra curriculars and sports, not to mention their primary mission of teaching the standard grade level curricula. All of that is expected with the lowest possible financial support that the officials in charge can get away with in order to keep taxes low.
Budget pressure is responsible for the closure of many shop programs. Shops tend to have low teacher: student ratios and need constant replenishment of expensive equipment, so they are exactly the kinds of money sinks that schools have to cut. I've talked to principals who told me as much. My community college just built a new automotive shop geared toward electric and hybrid vehicles. It was expensive... millions. It's not easy to staff either because those techs can make nearly double our salary scale in the industry.
As for the culture of pushing college, it's not the administrators or teachers whose minds you need to change - its the people who are putting on the external pressure. Mostly parents. Change the parents minds and the schools will respond.
Last edited by redguard57; 08-22-2018 at 10:16 PM..
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