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College may be financially useful and it may not. Generally, the internet consensus is ivy league degrees are useful as are employble STEM and business related degrees from State schools. Likewise medical professions and top law schools pay off.
From my experience my original bachelor's degree in biology was seriously useless. Once I got another degree to make it more employable (clinical laboratory science), I started getting decent paying job offers left and right. However, had I stayed with my original degree, I might have been stuck in low wage temp hell indefinitely.
There are definitely some trades I could've enjoyed and somewhat regret not going that route.
Last edited by njbiodude; 08-25-2018 at 09:13 PM..
LOVE IT! I had a colleague of mine say that her son went to an expensive private college his first year and majored in" Beer" . I doubt this is what she was talking about. He came back the next year and lived at home and went to the local university. LOL
LOVE IT! I had a colleague of mine say that her son went to an expensive private college his first year and majored in" Beer" . I doubt this is what she was talking about. He came back the next year and lived at home and went to the local university. LOL
Haha.
An actual brewing degree involves a lot of chemistry and agriculture classes.
Sports and beer appreciation is something different.
[quote=duke944;52854303]I haven't read the other responses to this threat so forgive me if I'm repeating things.
All it takes is one look at the student loan default crisis to see that college for most is NOT worth it, much less advanced degrees. Way too many grads work jobs that dont' require degrees. I would only recommend it if either your family/friends have excellent contacts (you know somebody), you are really driven towards a particular vocation, or you are really smart and can graduate near the top. Otherwise, college is a racket and a waste of time/money for most. Probably the most common reason for kids entering college is they don't have any idea what they want to do, and are delaying the work world. This is also the worst reason for entering college, because they end up in the same boat before they started, but with a huge student loan burden.
What is most disgusting about this racket is that high school counselors are trained to brainwash kids into thinking if they don't go to college they will be screwed. The big winners are the colleges, the professors and faculty, at the expense of those who fall for it then can't get a job using their degrees.[/quote
The way I think of it is, four to six years is going to come and go no matter what. You can either spend those 4-6 years doing nothing important, working your way up to something better, or have those 4-6 years go by and have a degree at the end of it.
If you choose the middle option, make sure you're choosing that career path because it is something you really want, and not just so you can avoid having to go to college.
I know people who have gone to get a CNA, Cosmetology license, or other short term preparation careers, and they aren't doing very well in them, and the reason they went to get them is they were trying to cut corners and not get the education.
What I've learned is that high schools have a lot on their plates. They are under pressure from numerous directions to do all kinds of things. I doubt that many of them actively want to exclude any career paths... but you are just one stakeholder among many putting pressure on them.
They're under pressure to increase standardized test scores, AP offerings, college dual credit, adopt new technology, respond to district, city, county, state, and federal initiatives and mandates, running a ton of extra curriculars and sports, not to mention their primary mission of teaching the standard grade level curricula. All of that is expected with the lowest possible financial support that the officials in charge can get away with in order to keep taxes low.
Budget pressure is responsible for the closure of many shop programs. Shops tend to have low teacher: student ratios and need constant replenishment of expensive equipment, so they are exactly the kinds of money sinks that schools have to cut. I've talked to principals who told me as much. My community college just built a new automotive shop geared toward electric and hybrid vehicles. It was expensive... millions. It's not easy to staff either because those techs can make nearly double our salary scale in the industry.
As for the culture of pushing college, it's not the administrators or teachers whose minds you need to change - its the people who are putting on the external pressure. Mostly parents. Change the parents minds and the schools will respond.
Schools nationwide are ranked by their college readiness score. And we rank locally by the percentage of students who go to college out of high school. Our school (my kids' school) has 99% go directly into college or the military. Now, that college score CAN mean trade, as our trade schools are actually at the community college level.
College used to pay off big time for the right majors years ago and tuition was way cheaper then. Back in the 1970s when I was working on my first Bachelor's degree, majoring in Geography, I had a couple of friends who majored in Packaging. They begged me to switch majors to it saying that it was guaranteed employment. I was hesitant to do so since I just wasn't interested in designing packages, and my mom said this may be an "easy come, easy go" field. It seemed to emerge out of nowhere and could retreat into nowhere again. So I graduated with my Geography degree and found a job as a software developer.
Meanwhile, my friends also graduated with their Packaging degrees. Their futures were indeed guaranteed. They had employers fawning over them and they both got multiple job offers BEFORE THEY EVEN GRADUATED. Both had lousy 2 point something GPAs and no internships. Both didn't like to study and did the minimum to just get by. But that, my friends, is what the college experience should be like.
Unfortunately, it ain't so anymore in today's world. You have to struggle to find a job after graduating, no matter what major you choose. Many more hoops to jump through in getting hired today and the hiring process takes much longer. And of course, college is now more expensive, with many students getting into serious debt. Plus, many employers are demanding degrees for even low paying jobs. So in many cases no degree, no job. Looks like a college degree is becoming more and more like a high school diploma used to years before - a must have for serious employment.
Kid 1 Teaching degree. 5 years. She had scholarships and worked, and got some help from us. Still she had to borrow about $40K. She started at $32K or 34K, now in her fifth year of teaching she worked her way up to $44K (mostly by moving to a more expensive city where they pay is higher - teachers do not get much in the way of raises).
Kid 2. Currently ABD (all but Dissertation - a new acronym I just learned) on her PhD. She had a lot of scholarships, worked, commuted from home for undergraduate, her PhD is funded, but the living expense portion is not enough to live on so she has had to borrow some. Next fall she will either be teaching as a college professor on a tenure track ($50 - $70K), or have to take a postDoc ($30 - 50K) until she finds a tenure track teaching position. Although she minimized borrowing, she took a long long time to complete each of her degrees for various reasons. Meanwhile interest is accruing on her loans and she will be about $100 K in debt by the time she gets her PhD. She said she will probably never be able to pay that off on a professor salary. She expects to pay on it her whole life and likely die with it still not paid off. She might be exaggerating, but it will take a long long time.
Kid 3. Left college after about a month. Had to pay back her scholarships. Drifted through various worthless jobs and is now a laborer in the Labor union. She currently makes about $18/hour, but will be at $24 before the end of the year. If she takes union training courses, she can move up from there and can eventually get as much as $48/hour. Currently she is working a job that is 7/12s so she makes roughly $1500 a week. She will eventually drop back to 50 hours a week, but by then she will have some raises, so she will be making at least $1000 a week. Benefits from the union are pretty decent. Not great, but not worse than say a teacher's benefits.
Kid 4. Went to engineering school on a partial scholarship. Kicked butt for two years, started to falter in the third year. Switched to IS and started a fourth year, but the switch set him back some. Got depressed, hated college, finally left. "The only time I am not miserable is when I am rowing" He fell just short of the likelihood of making the Olympic team and then they changed the classifications and ended that opportunity. So he became an assistant rowing coach, working three jobs and making about $1500 a month. He has over $40,000 in student loans, probably over $50,000 I do not know. He will likely default on them. He will also eventually have to get a degree (likely in fitness or whatever it would be called) so he can become a head coach. Then he can make $35,000 to $80,000, depending on where he coaches. Fortunately rowing is a really fast growing sport right now, so there will likely be a considerable demand for experienced coaches in a few years.
Kid 5. Just started college as a music major (trumpet performance). He has full tuition scholarship and about $6000 more for living expenses books etc. He had to borrow roughly $6,000 for this year. He may go on to get an MBA/JD and become an agent or some other music business position. By then he will likely have have $150,000 in debt ($30,000 undergrad, plus $120 K for five years of grad school). He may live at home and commute after his first year, so he would not need any undergraduate loans after this year. That is uncertain.
Mom - recently completed her Masters degree to become a full Librarian. Makes about $38K a year, maybe $40K. Online Masters cost at least $20,000. I am not sure how much she took out in loans because she does not want me to know. Obviously it was a lot.
Kid 3 is in the best financial position for the foreseeable future. Her debts are all paid off except her car, which is nearly paid off. By the end of this year, she will be making the most of all of them. Eventually they will make more than her, but after deducting interest and payments on the student loans, it will be at least ten years before any of them are ahead of her (assuming she stays in her current job and does not go back to college). It could well be 15 to 20 years before any of the others get ahead of her financially.
From a strictly financial perspective the kid who did not really go to college will be the best off for the immediate future. However there is a lot more benefit to getting a college degree than just financial.
Schools nationwide are ranked by their college readiness score. And we rank locally by the percentage of students who go to college out of high school. Our school (my kids' school) has 99% go directly into college or the military. Now, that college score CAN mean trade, as our trade schools are actually at the community college level.
Yes, I would prefer that those outcomes be evaluated by something more along the lines of the miltary's ASVAB, & less by college-board style standardized testing. Or at least give them equal weight. Also I'd like to see apprenticeship options count positively toward high school performance.
Kid 1 Teaching degree. 5 years. She had scholarships and worked, and got some help from us. Still she had to borrow about $40K. She started at $32K or 34K, now in her fifth year of teaching she worked her way up to $44K (mostly by moving to a more expensive city where they pay is higher - teachers do not get much in the way of raises).
Kid 2. Currently ABD (all but Dissertation - a new acronym I just learned) on her PhD. She had a lot of scholarships, worked, commuted from home for undergraduate, her PhD is funded, but the living expense portion is not enough to live on so she has had to borrow some. Next fall she will either be teaching as a college professor on a tenure track ($50 - $70K), or have to take a postDoc ($30 - 50K) until she finds a tenure track teaching position. Although she minimized borrowing, she took a long long time to complete each of her degrees for various reasons. Meanwhile interest is accruing on her loans and she will be about $100 K in debt by the time she gets her PhD. She said she will probably never be able to pay that off on a professor salary. She expects to pay on it her whole life and likely die with it still not paid off. She might be exaggerating, but it will take a long long time.
Kid 3. Left college after about a month. Had to pay back her scholarships. Drifted through various worthless jobs and is now a laborer in the Labor union. She currently makes about $18/hour, but will be at $24 before the end of the year. If she takes union training courses, she can move up from there and can eventually get as much as $48/hour. Currently she is working a job that is 7/12s so she makes roughly $1500 a week. She will eventually drop back to 50 hours a week, but by then she will have some raises, so she will be making at least $1000 a week. Benefits from the union are pretty decent. Not great, but not worse than say a teacher's benefits.
Kid 4. Went to engineering school on a partial scholarship. Kicked butt for two years, started to falter in the third year. Switched to IS and started a fourth year, but the switch set him back some. Got depressed, hated college, finally left. "The only time I am not miserable is when I am rowing" He fell just short of the likelihood of making the Olympic team and then they changed the classifications and ended that opportunity. So he became an assistant rowing coach, working three jobs and making about $1500 a month. He has over $40,000 in student loans, probably over $50,000 I do not know. He will likely default on them. He will also eventually have to get a degree (likely in fitness or whatever it would be called) so he can become a head coach. Then he can make $35,000 to $80,000, depending on where he coaches. Fortunately rowing is a really fast growing sport right now, so there will likely be a considerable demand for experienced coaches in a few years.
Kid 5. Just started college as a music major (trumpet performance). He has full tuition scholarship and about $6000 more for living expenses books etc. He had to borrow roughly $6,000 for this year. He may go on to get an MBA/JD and become an agent or some other music business position. By then he will likely have have $150,000 in debt ($30,000 undergrad, plus $120 K for five years of grad school). He may live at home and commute after his first year, so he would not need any undergraduate loans after this year. That is uncertain.
Mom - recently completed her Masters degree to become a full Librarian. Makes about $38K a year, maybe $40K. Online Masters cost at least $20,000. I am not sure how much she took out in loans because she does not want me to know. Obviously it was a lot.
Kid 3 is in the best financial position for the foreseeable future. Her debts are all paid off except her car, which is nearly paid off. By the end of this year, she will be making the most of all of them. Eventually they will make more than her, but after deducting interest and payments on the student loans, it will be at least ten years before any of them are ahead of her (assuming she stays in her current job and does not go back to college). It could well be 15 to 20 years before any of the others get ahead of her financially.
From a strictly financial perspective the kid who did not really go to college will be the best off for the immediate future. However there is a lot more benefit to getting a college degree than just financial.
Although your kid 3 got a union job, which by their nature are better than 4/5ths of equivalent non-union jobs. So she was a bit lucky there.
Sounds like all your kids attempted college and some of them just kept going on for further degrees. Some of them chose paths that must have been clear were not that remunerative or immediately in-demand.
Did they consider other alternatives? What would you say influenced their choices to pursue their particular college programs the most - your parental influence, their k-12 teachers, their peers, or something else?
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