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As for the culture of pushing college, it's not the administrators or teachers whose minds you need to change - its the people who are putting on the external pressure. Mostly parents. Change the parents minds and the schools will respond.
I don't believe it's the parents pushing it. Rather they are being told college is the only path. Even back when I was in elementary the school issued us book covers that listed all the advantages of completing a college education -- back in the 60s. Growing up my school had an excellent shop program. Now shop programs are all but gone from schools. But plenty of AP programs.
I firmly believe that every kid is different and some are college bound, future scientists, engineers, doctors. And others are best served by studying the trades. We need good, skilled trades people. Being a carpenter or plumber used to be an honored trade. It needs to be that way again.
I don't believe it's the parents pushing it. Rather they are being told college is the only path. Even back when I was in elementary the school issued us book covers that listed all the advantages of completing a college education -- back in the 60s. Growing up my school had an excellent shop program. Now shop programs are all but gone from schools. But plenty of AP programs.
I firmly believe that every kid is different and some are college bound, future scientists, engineers, doctors. And others are best served by studying the trades. We need good, skilled trades people. Being a carpenter or plumber used to be an honored trade. It needs to be that way again.
For all the promises to improve vocational education, however, a principal federal source of money for it, called Tech-Prep, hasn’t been funded since 2011. A quarter of states last year reduced their own funding for postsecondary career and technical education, according to the National Association of State Directors of Career Technical Education.
The branding issue
Money isn’t the only issue, advocates for career and technical education say. An even bigger challenge is convincing parents that it leads to good jobs.
“They remember ‘voc-ed’ from what they were in high school, which is not necessarily what they aspire to for their own kids,” Kreamer said.
The parents “are definitely harder to convince because there is that stigma of the six-pack-totin’ ironworker,” said Greg Christiansen, who runs the ironworkers training program. Added Kairie Pierce, apprenticeship and college director for the Washington State Labor Council of the AFL-CIO: “It sort of has this connotation of being a dirty job. It’s hard work — I want something better for my son or daughter.”
Of the $200 million that California is spending on vocational education, $6 million is going into a campaign to improve the way people regard it. The Lake Washington Institute of Technology changed its name from Lake Washington Technical College, said Goings, its president, to avoid being stereotyped as a vocational school.
These perceptions fuel the worry that, if students are urged as early as the seventh grade to consider the trades, low-income, first-generation and ethnic and racial minority high school students will be channeled into blue-collar jobs while wealthier and white classmates are pushed by their parents to get bachelor’s degrees.
“When CTE was vocational education, part of the reason we had a real disinvestment from the system was because we were tracking low-income and minority kids into these pathways,” Kreamer said. “There is this tension between, do you want to focus on the people who would get the most benefit from these programs, and — is that tracking?”
In a quest for prestige and rankings, and to bolster real-estate values, high schools also like to emphasize the number of their graduates who go on to four-year colleges and universities.
I've been in education 9 years and have never heard anyone denigrate any trade profession.
I work for a community college, half of our job is VoTech ( called Career & Technical Education). Part of my job is to recruit students... I survey them for what their goals are. Prestige is the single biggest motivating factor - their peers and families push them to go to college moreso than the teachers who are up to their necks in work trying to meet all their mandates.
I've worked in the community college sector for 6 years and you know who flooded our halls in the depth of the recession? People laid off from the construction trades thanks to the housing boom and bust. A lot of them are the parents. Some of those jobs came back but many did not.
Some things like carpentry and plumbing are out of the hands of schools. The unions control that training and the state regulates licensing standards. Best the can do is have a representative talk.
If students are going to train up for the new technical jobs they need some math and science as a foundation. For example in our AAS program in automotive electronics, first-year physics is a requirement and major weed out class, but according to the program director a necessary one.
It's precisely more students in AP who should consider trades. A tradesperson who can do math, write well, and critically think will eventually become a good contractor or business owner. It will improve the quality of their overall life and our society if they take ethics, literature, art and history. Maybe if he or she learns to communicate well, then he can teach the subject to others after years on the job and his knees give out.
We need to dispense with the idea that college-bound = more intelligent or that tradespeople can't read books. Or that people that read books can't build something with their hands. A big part of the problem we have is that people think trades are for the slow students, book learning is for the smart ones.
Last edited by redguard57; 08-23-2018 at 12:37 AM..
Many people don't work in the field that their degrees are in. I feel getting a degree is worth it, because even if you aren't sure what you want to do after you finish, it's much more difficult the older you get to have time for college if you end up wanting a career that you need a degree for.
If you can't fathom 4-6 years for a bachelor's, go to a community college as an undecided major and take the English, math courses that a counselor says would transfer to any degree, a history, along with a humanities course for a few semesters.
That way, if you get to be in your late 20's to early 30's and you want a career that requires at least a bachelor's, you'll be able to get right into the relevant courses and finish in less than a few years.
Please note, I agreed with the conclusions of redguard.
What doesn't exist are students coming out of undergrad with $200k in debt. The only people coming out with that kind of debt are called Doctors and Dentists, both of which will earn about $200k/yr. The average undergrad graduates with about $30k in debt. A number that should be pretty workable. The 10 year payment on that would be about $330/mo.
I appreciate that you've visited a HS that had a trade representative talking about their career path.
But in my experience, HS's in general are still heavily pushing the "gotta' go to college if you're gonna' make anything of yourself" agenda.
How do I know? because I, and a number of my friends across various industries/trades, have been trying to get funding and support for VOTEC's and Trade training programs for decades without success.
Indeed, one of my group with a multi-state HVAC distributorship/wholesaler sits on a Governor's Council for education. His home state has a shortage right now for approx. 1,200 HVAC technicians, with pay scales ranging from $25/hr through over $50/hr (supervisory and programming level techs). He's been trying to get the state to support opening up a VOTEC utilizing existing CCollege facilities … which would require locating and hiring qualified instructors, and appropriate teaching aids/equipment. IOW, a pretty nominal investment with a very good upside outcome potential for grads. After 10 years of trying to get the state on board with any form or training program, no state aid, no school district, nobody in the education biz is interested in touching such a program.
The value of such a program would be enormous. It's not just his home state that is experiencing this HVAC tech shortage, but many others. A campus with housing readily available and reasonable out-of-state tuition rates could be expected to attract students from other states, too.
It's not just this one industry. Having been in the automotive biz for over 50 years, we've been decrying the trend away from automotive/diesel/farm equipment/stationary equipment techs for at least 35 years.
Many VOTECH's which trained these trades have either dropped the programs they had years ago or are pretty weak for-profit ventures that simply don't survive very well. For example, the operators of the VOTECH in Laramie … which had an enrollment of over 1,000 students and many more nationwide at other facilities … went bankrupt earlier last year. And their tuition rivalled college programs for white collar programs; ie, it's wasn't inexpensive to learn how to be a tech in these fields.
Again, the pay rates awaiting grads were and remain pretty good. One of the regional farm equipment multi-outlet dealerships was recently advertising that they had tech job openings, and the "average" tech in their shops was knocking down $100K/year + benefits (health, sick leave, vacation, retirement). Judging from their ads, it took them almost a year to fill the then available job openings. But for folk willing to relocate in rural USA major towns, this was a tremendous opportunity. That was a pretty high earnings level for the areas.
The bottom line is that I see little effort on the part of HS programs today to support the trades. Quite the contrary, everybody seems to be on the "college prep" program and trades are still looked down upon except as a last resort for the HS drop-outs to try to make a living so as not to be a burden on society. And the HS counselors I've visited with suggest that prospective drop-outs "hang on" long enough to get that HS diploma (or GED) so that they can apply to the military before considering a blue collar trade career. One of their biggest selling points for the military? "the military will give you your college education funds as part of their benefits/compensation package".
What state doesn't have Vo-Tecs offering what you list? Just pulled up the local Vo-Tec 15 minutes from my house. Here are two of their nine Departments and their majors:
CONSTRUCTION & MANUFACTURING
Architectural Technology
Brewing & Beer Steward Technology
Civil Engineering Technology
Construction Management
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Electrical Lineworker
Energy Technical Specialist
HVAC & Refrigeration Technology
Industrial & Energy Plant Maintenance
Interior Design
Welding Technology
TRANSPORTATION
Auto Body Collision Technology
Automotive Technician
GM Automotive Service Educational Program
Heavy Construction Equipment Technology
Heavy Duty Truck Technology
Transportation Management
What state doesn't have Vo-Tecs offering what you list? Just pulled up the local Vo-Tec 15 minutes from my house. Here are two of their nine Departments and their majors:
CONSTRUCTION & MANUFACTURING
Architectural Technology Brewing & Beer Steward Technology
Civil Engineering Technology
Construction Management
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Electrical Lineworker
......
Gotta love that brewing program!
What I would add, that same college has not one but two outreach programs to high schools:
Quote:
HIGH SCHOOL PROGRAMS
Upward Bound, through the TRIO program, provides students with the tools they need to graduate from high school and set them up for success throughout college.
Post-Secondary Enrollment Options (PSEO) provides Minnesota juniors and seniors an opportunity to receive high school, college, or university credits through courses that are completed at DCTC.
I've been in education 9 years and have never heard anyone denigrate any trade profession.
I work for a community college, half of our job is VoTech ( called Career & Technical Education). Part of my job is to recruit students... I survey them for what their goals are. Prestige is the single biggest motivating factor - their peers and families push them to go to college moreso than the teachers who are up to their necks in work trying to meet all their mandates.
I've worked in the community college sector for 6 years and you know who flooded our halls in the depth of the recession? People laid off from the construction trades thanks to the housing boom and bust. A lot of them are the parents. Some of those jobs came back but many did not.
Some things like carpentry and plumbing are out of the hands of schools. The unions control that training and the state regulates licensing standards. Best the can do is have a representative talk.
If students are going to train up for the new technical jobs they need some math and science as a foundation. For example in our AAS program in automotive electronics, first-year physics is a requirement and major weed out class, but according to the program director a necessary one.
It's precisely more students in AP who should consider trades. A tradesperson who can do math, write well, and critically think will eventually become a good contractor or business owner. It will improve the quality of their overall life and our society if they take ethics, literature, art and history. Maybe if he or she learns to communicate well, then he can teach the subject to others after years on the job and his knees give out.
We need to dispense with the idea that college-bound = more intelligent or that tradespeople can't read books. Or that people that read books can't build something with their hands. A big part of the problem we have is that people think trades are for the slow students, book learning is for the smart ones.
I don't disagree with what you're saying. When I grew up VoTech was originally taught in the regular high school and then moved to a separate high school in the county. It wasn't a post high school program. Kids would attend half a day at the VoTech and then return to the regular high school for regular classes. The VoTech also taught Business English and Business Math which met the math and English credits for graduation.
It also seems that over time VoTech became more post high school and has now morphed into CC. In fact in our state CC has morphed into the first two years of college and the more professional programs (like nursing) and what was the traditional VoTech has been shifted from the high schools and CC to separate Technical Centers.
My opinion is parents who bought into the "college for everyone" mantra have bought the line about everyone who goes to college earns more. What that doesn't help is the people who don't have the academic ability to handle the degree programs leading to higher pay and who either drop out after spending significant money, or who switch to easier and less economically viable programs, graduating with debt. There's a cost benefit trade that every potential student and parents need to do that too many overlook.
I 100 percent agree we need to get beyond college=smarter. It's a different path to different goals. That's what we need to encourage.
I've been in education 9 years and have never heard anyone denigrate any trade profession.
I've been in the "trades" (automotive repair, now boat repair) for over 50 years.
I taught at a private for-profit motorcycle "institute" for 3 years, part-time (as their "euro bike" instructor), and was aggressively recruited for years by a local CC with a then popular diesel tech course. The CC never had enough students sign up for my listed courses to bring me in. Few of my students were youngsters seeking a career opportunity. Most were enrolled because it "sounded good" as an alternative to other options offered through the criminal justice juvenile system and somebody else was paying for it. The best students I had were older guys who wanted to enhance their personal skillset for hobby work.
I have heard numerous pro's in the education business decry training trades people. They'd rather abandon that to the respective industries/employers/unions, which are wholly inadequate to do so unless we (society) return to an apprenticeship model for youngsters.
I work for a community college, half of our job is VoTech ( called Career & Technical Education). Part of my job is to recruit students... I survey them for what their goals are. Prestige is the single biggest motivating factor - their peers and families push them to go to college moreso than the teachers who are up to their necks in work trying to meet all their mandates.
Most of the folk I know that are active in the trades … let's say weldors, for example … got pushed into getting training for that because Mom & Dad were pushing them out the door if they weren't interested in finishing HS or heading onward to a meaningful college program. Many of those parents recognized that a degree, in and of itself, is not necessarily a ticket to economic independence. They see that a lot of degrees are effectively worth no more than the paper they're printed on, having supported an educational establishment that is fully self-serving. There's only so many grads in various degree programs that can find jobs in the field or remotely associated with their field.
Yes, I've known PhD's (philosophy, Italian lit specialing in Dante, physicist, biology) who have never worked in their field once out of college. One of my fav's was a gentleman who owned/ran a garbage truck route in a small town, along with the only local septic tank cleaning service. He was knocking down a $6-figure income in an area with an average income in the mid $30K range at the time. His PhD diploma decorated the back side of his bathroom door … I got to see it one year when he asked me over to his shop to check out a diesel fuel injection problem on his truck. I never knew before then that he had that education background. One physicist worked for me as an auto tech for 4 years before landing another research project grant … in San Fran; it was a tough decision for him because his net discretionary income after the COL in SF was less than he was capturing in Denver at the time.
I've worked in the community college sector for 6 years and you know who flooded our halls in the depth of the recession? People laid off from the construction trades thanks to the housing boom and bust. A lot of them are the parents. Some of those jobs came back but many did not.
Many of the "jobs came back". The difference today is who is working on those sites. I don't speak Spanish but I think I can recognize the chatter I hear at the job sites.
A neighbor of mine who had inherited a 100-year old plumbing and heating business, including all the prime real estate, warehouses, showrooms, offices, inventory, service trucks, equipment, materials and supplies, safety equipment … the whole shebang, employing 30 union techs for decades … couldn't win BIDS for new or remodeling projects when the area building trades economy took off again. The disparity between his costs of business and labor and that of the non-union shops employing an entirely different group of people was staggering. To the point that when he was building his own new 4,000 sq ft residence, it was less expensive for him to BID the project out to those competitors than it was to utilize his own company/employees. When he realized that difference in the business model, he had a big auction … the business assets were sold, employees let go, and the real estate was sold. Done. Out of business, now doing specialty oil field work with another crew, mostly welding projects. Oh, and a remote site "port a john" service company for the oil patch workers.
Some things like carpentry and plumbing are out of the hands of schools. The unions control that training and the state regulates licensing standards. Best the can do is have a representative talk.
For an education professional, you're displaying a lot of ignorance of the skillsets that can be taught in a CC/VoTech environment. There's a lot of hand skills, layout skills, drafting/drawing skillsets, use of tools and equipment, understanding building codes and prudent practices which need to be understood and embraced by these tradespeople. A perfectly excellent place to teach these background skills is in the existing educational facilities. Yes, there's materials costs for the practice/learning projects. Call it a "lab fee" or whatever you will, these can be fairly nominal expenses that the student incur. They certainly do with other courses, don't they?
And it doesn't cost an "arm and a leg" worth of huge capital investment to do so, contrary to the nonsense that you're spouting off here about why it's too expensive for a VoTech to teach these subjects. Basic toolsets, equipment, shop and classroom space simply isn't that daunting a proposition.
What really "takes the cake" for a lot of student educational expenses is the burden of "student fees" that go to a lot of crap which isn't germane to the trade courses. As a senior citizen, I looked at what some of those fees would cover … and not one of them was a service that enhanced my educational experience. Yet those fees exceeded the tuition fees per semester for the courses of interest to me. For a youngster with a limited educational budget, that overhead expense could easily be the marginal difference between a trades education and doing without. I don't need the sports arena, the student coffee lounge, the campus social activities, etc. Nor did I use those "extras" back in the my college days in the 1960's. The "necessity" of a CC supporting sports teams on the general student population's back is … well, simply beyond me. You want sports? Rah Rah Rah … go to it. But you pay for your entertainment, without passing along the burden to me, OK?
If students are going to train up for the new technical jobs they need some math and science as a foundation. For example in our AAS program in automotive electronics, first-year physics is a requirement and major weed out class, but according to the program director a necessary one.
While physics is a "nice to have" knowledge in doing automotive electronics diagnostics, it's most certainly not an essential skillset in actual shop practice. Sounds more to me like your "program director" is blowing smoke up your nether regions in his efforts to "weed out" the students who may not have the comprehension/reading skills and analytical thinking needed to successfully diagnose electrical/electronic systems.
My personal strength in automotive repair for over 50 years has been the electrical and electronics side of the biz. In all candor, I can't recall ever relying upon the topics from my HS and college physics classes as being germane to the work.
It's precisely more students in AP who should consider trades. A tradesperson who can do math, write well, and critically think will eventually become a good contractor or business owner. It will improve the quality of their overall life and our society if they take ethics, literature, art and history. Maybe if he or she learns to communicate well, then he can teach the subject to others after years on the job and his knees give out.
Sorry to inform you, but this is the biggest foolish piece of nonsense you've espoused here.
There is a HUGE GAP between the skillsets of a trades person and the leadership, management, marketing, customer relationships, business skillsets, real estate, money/fiscal management skillsets of a business person. To assume as you assert that a good tradesman with proficient technical skills and ability can readily transition to being a business owner is the height of foolishness. It just ain't so.
As a successful automotive shop owner that has encouraged over a dozen techs through the years to open their own shops, and financially assisted a few of them to "get started", I personally have had "skin in the game" to see them succeed. Five have, seven didn't. For those with the aptitude, inclination, and motivation, the path to business success was still a lot of work and education, fraught frequently with missteps. It took years for the guys to make the successful transition to being a business owner, and they each paid a sometimes dear personal price to do so. The adage that "experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted" was proven time and time again.
We need to dispense with the idea that college-bound = more intelligent or that tradespeople can't read books. Or that people that read books can't build something with their hands. A big part of the problem we have is that people think trades are for the slow students, book learning is for the smart ones.
Finally, a line of thought we can agree upon. Especially the "college-bound = more intelligent" fallacy. I've worked for a lot of people who are good at memorizing the stuff needed to pass exams but are functionally incapable of coherent, reasoned and applied thinking on their own.
When you see a PhD who can't figure out how to use a car jack to change a flat tire, you know that something's missing. Yes, I appreciate the difference between "not wanting to get my hands dirty" vs being baffled by how things work. BTDT, doing road service calls for MB, BMW, R-R, … even a Lambo' owner.
What state doesn't have Vo-Tecs offering what you list? Just pulled up the local Vo-Tec 15 minutes from my house. Here are two of their nine Departments and their majors:
CONSTRUCTION & MANUFACTURING
Architectural Technology
Brewing & Beer Steward Technology
Civil Engineering Technology
Construction Management
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Electrical Lineworker
Energy Technical Specialist
HVAC & Refrigeration Technology
Industrial & Energy Plant Maintenance
Interior Design
Welding Technology
TRANSPORTATION
Auto Body Collision Technology
Automotive Technician
GM Automotive Service Educational Program
Heavy Construction Equipment Technology
Heavy Duty Truck Technology
Transportation Management
Having a program title and a meaningful affordable education that turns out graduates that are ready and capable to work is an entirely different proposition.
I've hired the "#1 Top Graduate" from several different public and private VoTechs through the years and not one of them was fit to independently change engine oil and filter, a transmission oil and filter, nor inspect brakes/braking systems. We'll not even visit the details of inspecting suspension system, recognizing driveability problems, or figuring out if a diesel fuel injection system was delivering fuel or out of fuel in the tank. One of those grads even showed up for his first day of work with his "Snap-On Graduate of the Year" $30,000 toolbox/tool collection. In at 8 AM, out by Noon that day when he screwed up changing oil on a 6.9 'benz but was insulted that I wouldn't let him touch the 280SE in-line 6 cylinder MB engine that was on my engine stand. The guy couldn't even count 9 qts of oil from a 55 gal drum dispensed into a 1-qt measuring/filling oil can with spout. His angry departure notice: "The VoTech has a lifetime free employment agency assistance that would find him a better job". OK pal, please … don't let the front door hit you in the a** on your way out. Bye-Bye.
So one of the things I've noticed about many VoTech programs is that they don't get a lot of students. The word is out "on the street" that the grads can't find work or don't stay long in the biz … because they can't do the work at the level that they thought they were trained to do. Everybody wants to graduate right to the $6-figure auto trades jobs … which are out there … but they don't have the skills to do anywhere close to that. The VoTechs, in my experience, simply oversell what they have on offer … and even private ones, such as Lincoln Tech and their parent company, charging hefty tuition fees … couldn't stay in business. I've been around a fair number of their students/grads (because one of their centers was nearby) … and I wouldn't trust the ones I met to remove and properly install an engine oil drain plug.
I might second guess your choice of college, but certainly not the degree itself.
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