What's next, put a tax on firewood? (cost of, bike)

[zenkonami]

Nat Parks Traveller

Smart Money

[treedonkey]

Originally Posted by Shuffler

I think it's amusing that people whine about paying a nominal access fee to climb a mountain...and these same people have no problem spending lots of money on gear, and of course the gas money to get them there... If it helps to cull some of the ignorant/selfish masses out of the tromping herds, that'd be fine by me.

Why is that amusing?

The difference is that things like gear and fuel are OPTIONAL... That is, there is no government rule requiring you to drive there or to buy a brand new petzl LCD headlamp before you do. What grates on people is being charged to use something that we have supposedly already payed for in the form of taxes and entrance or day use fees.

If those fees were somehow magically able to keep irresponsible hikers out, I'd say sure, bring it on. But why would requiring folks to to pay keep any of that out? In fact, it could make it worse. If people are ticked off about having to pay the fee some might intentionally litter even more or otherwise abuse the trail as a way to vent their frustrations.

[treedonkey]

Originally Posted by zenkonami

Nat Parks Traveller

Smart Money

First, if you're going to post links, please provide some context for what your reason for posting them is so that we'll know where we're headed if we click on them.

Second, both of those articles have to do with ENTRANCE fees. We already have a consensus of opinion that entrance and day use fees are totally fair and reasonable, especially when they pay for things like roads, restrooms, picnic tables, visitor centers and other FACILITIES that are heavily used by the paying public.

[Shuffler]

Originally Posted by treedonkey

The difference is that things like gear and fuel are OPTIONAL... That is, there is no government rule requiring you to drive there or to buy a brand new petzl LCD headlamp before you do....

...if people are ticked off about having to pay the fee some might intentionally litter even more or otherwise abuse the trail as a way to vent their frustrations...

I couldn't tell you the last time I or any of my friends saw somebody naked and bootless summit a 14er after they'd walked there the night before in the dark without a headlamp...but it'd be pretty amusing!

Nor do I anticipate hikers taking out their anger by littering or damaging a trail....generally speaking they are very conservation-minded, or at least pretend to be.

The point I'm making is that a few more bucks for the privilege of using trails/areas which have unfortunately fallen victim to the folly of peak-bagging is a spit in the river compared to what most of these folks have laid out to pursue their hobby.

The rub is being assured that the monies collected from the new fee are responsibly accounted for and put to good use, but we all know better than that...

[treedonkey]

Originally Posted by Shuffler

I couldn't tell you the last time I or any of my friends saw somebody naked and bootless summit a 14er after they'd walked there the night before in the dark without a headlamp...but it'd be pretty amusing!

The point I'm making is that a few more bucks for the privilege of using trails/areas which have unfortunately fallen victim to the folly of peak-bagging is a spit in the river compared to what most of these folks have laid out to pursue their hobby.

Okay, smart alec... I don't know how much you spend on your flashlights and other gear, or how many 14ers you are hiking in the middle of the night. (wouldn't that get you around the trail fee, anyways?) But I have an old mag light, steel water bottle and a few other essentials that I keep in a daypack which I probably bought before you were born, and I've safely hiked all over the country with that stuff. How is that an expensive hobby?

Sure, some folks like to turn the simplest pursuits into some sort of trophy contest to pour loads of money into. But, since we can just target those people with the trail fees (and it's too bad we can't... 'lets, see, $60 petzl zoom lamp purchased two day ago at REI... that'll be $5 per mile for you!') I, like most everyone else, would prefer it if the peaks themselves were left free of charge, as they have been since the beginning of time.

[CosmicWizard]

treedonkey...you made several statements to Shuffler in the post above that make wonder just how old you are:

....which I probably bought before you were born

....the peaks themselves were left free of charge, as they have been since the beginning of time

Anyone who claims to know what was going on since the beginning of time must be pretty darn old.

[sterlinggirl]

Originally Posted by Shuffler

Nor do I anticipate hikers taking out their anger by littering or damaging a trail....generally speaking they are very conservation-minded, or at least pretend to be.

In my experience different kinds of trails attract different personality types. The 14ers tend to attract a lot more of the Type As who don't seem to care as much about the environment as the Type Bs who hike the less strenuous trails.

I don't feel compelled at all to hike a 14er, but I still object to the idea of charging fees on them because it will set the precedent to start charging fees on all trails.

[CosmicWizard]

sterlinggirl wrote:

In my experience different kinds of trails attract different personality types. The 14ers tend to attract a lot more of the Type As who don't seem to care as much about the environment as the Type Bs who hike the less strenuous trails.

Your comment about the Type A personalities is right on the money. Two years ago there was a bicycle race on the trails of the Lunch Loop area in Grand Junction. For several days after the race, there were energy bar wrappers and water bottles littered all over the place. Much to the credit of the cycling organization that sponsored the race, they cleaned up the litter...but it took them a few days to get around to it.

[treedonkey]

Originally Posted by CosmicWizard

treedonkey...you made several statements to Shuffler in the post above that make wonder just how old you are:

....which I probably bought before you were born

....the peaks themselves were left free of charge, as they have been since the beginning of time

Anyone who claims to know what was going on since the beginning of time must be pretty darn old.

Just call me Methuselah.
I'm not really that old, I just got the impression that shuffler was in his teens or early 20's because he assumed that everyone hikes with expensive REI gear all the time, and that you would wind up dead in a crevass without it. And also because he mentioned hiking with his friends regularly which would mean he is probably not married with kids which would make him younger. I could be wrong, though. But if I'm not then you can just call me Monk instead.

As for knowing what was going on at the beginning of time, you're right, I lied. But I'm pretty sure Chief Scabby Bull was not sitting at the trialhead, demanding gold coinage to enter the mountains, although perhaps he should have been.

[treedonkey]

Originally Posted by CosmicWizard

sterlinggirl wrote:

In my experience different kinds of trails attract different personality types. The 14ers tend to attract a lot more of the Type As who don't seem to care as much about the environment as the Type Bs who hike the less strenuous trails.

Your comment about the Type A personalities is right on the money. Two years ago there was a bicycle race on the trails of the Lunch Loop area in Grand Junction. For several days after the race, there were energy bar wrappers and water bottles littered all over the place. Much to the credit of the cycling organization that sponsored the race, they cleaned up the litter...but it took them a few days to get around to it.

Okay, at the risk of going WAYYY off topic. I know nothing about type A, B or Q personalities, but can I tell you how much that irks me? I run in occassional trail races and other sponsored events as a way to see new areas and reach personal goals. But they are always partially ruined by all the people (has to be at least 90% of them) who seem to think they are going for Olympic gold and can't risk losing 2 seconds off their time to throw their cups and wrappers away in a trash receptacle. Especially bad are the XTERRA events because a) they are multi-sport which brings out the most competitive of the tight-panted weekend warriors and b) they are usually held in National Forest or other wilderness areas and there is just no excuse for littering in those areas. The race organizers will repeatedly announce that you need to NOT litter your goo packs or anything else on the trial, but being as how I am usually in last place or so I see nothing but trash the whole way. Granted, the organizers do a thorough job of picking up after everyone's mess, but the point is that they shouldn't have to. I mean, first prize is usually a hat or a cap or something so what the heck are these people getting so competitive for??? They also have a tendency of mercilessly overtaking and nearly running over any poor pubic users who have unwittingly decided to enjoy that particular stretch of forest on that particular day. I've often stopped on the trail and apologized for the behavior of the other races, which is another reason I usually come in dead last (which, by the way, usually yields more crowd-cheering than coming in first, not that I ever have). I've stopped participating in those multisport races because they're just to contrary to the nature of the outdoor areas they are held in. I do still enjoy a good trail race as runners are usually a much less aggressive bunch than cyclists and triahtletes and so the races are held more responsibly.

Okay, end of rant. back to topic. Forget the trail fees and crack down on littering. A$10k per wrapper fee should cover the cost of the trails and the patrol-men.