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You can try and twist my words, which is typical, but the fact is I said "per capita" not that it never happened. And the 6k year thing is not my belief at all. I have had some pretty heated debates with other christians about this very topic and only a fraction believe it anyway.
So what is you point about the books? It's okay to ban them so long as you are discreet about it?
1963 was a turning point. Learn your history.
All I found was the murder rate for that time period: the BJS doesn't make information that easily accessible. (Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide Trends) Sure it went up from 1963 to 1993 or so but then it made a precipitous drop to now which ironically are slightly above levels found in dun dun dunnnn 1963 your control year. This process nearly matching the pattern it followed from 1916ish to 1932. What were the drivers behind the uptick both times? I don't know and would need hours of research to go through and find out the story behind the numbers, and I'm sure you would need to too. But to chalk it up to "taking god out of the classroom" or "no longer teaching morality" seems lacking to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fbam
I am talking about the nation as a whole and trends. We can debate the reasons behind the crime and lack of morality all day and the cause is not religion or conservatism that is a ridiculous. Teaching morality is now the cause of immorality?
Actually, if your talking about the nation as a whole, isn't it prudent to examine the factors of similarities and differences of the micro to see how they affect the macro? You said it was Progressives that destroyed society or something to that effect: however the more "Progressive" places seem to be a hell of a lot more moral in practice. Is this because we don't teach our children religion in school? As a graduate of Catholic school which I attended for 8 years I highly doubt it, kids are kids and what goes in one ear goes out the other, and from my experience (and reading about behavioral psychology) morally oppressive environments creates more of a "forbidden fruit" element to immorality and an inability to reconcile slight lapses of conscience that may be needed to function in society.
My hypothesis is that it has more to do with economic opportunity and choices, helped by progressive social works that benefit the group. Yours, while valid as conjecture, would be so incredibly hard to prove.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fbam
The treaty of Tripoli backs up my point. Clearly you have read the preamble but you don't understand the position I am taking. It says the US wasn't in any sense founded on the christian religion. That is the FEDERAL government not taking a position on a particular religion. We are not founded as a christian nation but to say that this nation was not founded on christian principles is absurd.
I provided links to back up my views. Where are yours?
Christian Principles? Are you talking about universals like hope and charity or specifics that built up ecumenically like the personification of God (swt) in Jesus Christ / eternal damnation / and charity? Speeches are nice, but when it came to brass tacks they noticeably omitted it in the function of Governance. A lot was taken verbatim from English Common Law (why precedents are so important to us) and Roman styled civic-structure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fbam
My original point was that it is not conservatism ruining Texas and not progressivism that makes CT great. But the Fact is everything that you all continually complain about can be tied directly to progressives like High state taxes, high gas tax, the taxes on your cars, high property taxes over paid state employees, etc etc.
As far as the educational system goes it doesn't matter whether it is a blue or red state the teachers unions are in control.
This is the juice of the matter. I complain rarely, and going by this site might be a bad choice because a) its' the internet, and b) sometimes you gotta blow off steam so you go to item (a). Sure it's slightly more expensive here, but taxes play such a little role in it its' unfunny. Real estate seems to be the biggest factor (although there are still dirt cheap places in CT), as MSRP has played a role in equaling out prices across the nation for consumer goods. Plus places like Texas have oil, a much higher sales tax, and federal monies (guess where they get that money from??) to help them out. Everything seems to kind of balance out in the end so what becomes important is what you personally are looking for: this trying to game the system to "pay less" seems futile and I think that above everything else is holding us back.
Of course there is a point where people can be taxed too much, but this is not it, and we're really not as bad off as we think compared to other places nationally.
Kidyankee, I think the asking about religion is more to gain a gauge of your mindset, like how we'll ask which school did you go to or what music do you like. Same cake really, though I could be wrong.
~Cheers
Last edited by Beeker2211; 07-08-2010 at 05:13 PM..
Reason: took out annoying looking rhetoric
My original point was that it is not conservatism ruining Texas and not progressivism that makes CT great. But the Fact is everything that you all continually complain about can be tied directly to progressives like High state taxes, high gas tax, the taxes on your cars, high property taxes over paid state employees, etc etc.
As far as the educational system goes it doesn't matter whether it is a blue or red state the teachers unions are in control.
That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Hell, one could argue that the extreme right conservative Christian principles that founded CT are what gave it a good foundation and the liberal/left/socialist/progressive crap is what's taking down the mighty fortress this state once was!
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Originally Posted by kidyankee764
Happened when I was staying in Charlotte too. It's their way of determining whether or not you're "friend worthy".
Nahhh, hey I lived there didn't just visit. Church down there goes beyond religion, it's a social thing. Most people are just being nice and asking it in case you are "looking" as it's expected. I don't agree with that social thing, but it's the real reason. Most folks I knew there after asking me and my reply was "none as of yet" said "well we're having a diner on so and so night, if you like to join us you're more than welcome".
I don't find religous threatening, and I appreciate an invite the same was I can appreciate a Jew wishing me a happy whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeker2211
Christian Principles?...Speeches are nice, but when it came to brass tacks they noticeably omitted it in the function of Governance.
Really? Hmmm, I wonder why the 10 Commandments are all over courthouses...I wonder why Congress still opens with "prayer".
Did you read my post of Washingtons fairwell address? If so you must have missed this:
Religion and Morality are indispensable supports....Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice?
I mean, the stuff is all over the place if you choose to see it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeker2211
Of course there is a point where people can be taxed too much, but this is not it, and we're really not as bad off as we think compared to other places nationally.
Really? I may not be able to pay my mortgage this month due to taxation...morever a tax warrant because "taxes" are not being paid fast enough that gives the city/state the right to go to my bank and remove all cash available, mortage, food, clothing et al be damned.
Think I'm joking? I'm not. I'm drowning in taxes and can't survive, and the government gives me no redress and doesn't give a crap if I go into forclosure. Yes I have consulted a tax atty, the state law is the state law. Period.
Trust me, this dude showed up at my house like Vinny Knuckles and I have no recourse. NONE. And it's not like I got a hearing, got to talk to someone, or even am able to answer supposed charges.
Not taxed enough my ass. Try doing more than working your job and getting your W2 at the end of the year and filing for a return. If you own a business in CT you get ass raped. Period.
As you say ~cheers.
P.S. I'm NOT kidding, I may not be able to make my mortgage payment because the f*cking town cleaned out my bank account, sight unseen.
Nahhh, hey I lived there didn't just visit. Church down there goes beyond religion, it's a social thing. Most people are just being nice and asking it in case you are "looking" as it's expected. I don't agree with that social thing, but it's the real reason. Most folks I knew there after asking me and my reply was "none as of yet" said "well we're having a diner on so and so night, if you like to join us you're more than welcome".
Exactly my point. So if you don't belong to a church, you won't "fit in".
I'd be curious to see what the outcome would be if you attended that dinner but never joined any congregation. Would they continue to be your friend?
Church down there goes beyond religion, it's a social thing. Most people are just being nice and asking it in case you are "looking" as it's expected. I don't agree with that social thing, but it's the real reason. Most folks I knew there after asking me and my reply was "none as of yet" said "well we're having a diner on so and so night, if you like to join us you're more than welcome".
I don't find religous threatening, and I appreciate an invite the same was I can appreciate a Jew wishing me a happy whatever.
Which is easy to say when you are a Christian and in the very majority and tradition being expressed.
I'm not sure you can any more prove that the church question is people "just being nice" than I could prove it's about people making sure you're not Jewish or atheist. Would I still get invited to the dinner as a Jew? If so, would it be an attempt to evangelize me, since they know how to pray better than I do?
I find the church question, not to mention a lot of the southern "niceness" to be highly superficial and judgmental. Relationships run deeper here, are more meaningful, and are frequently so, in spite of not attending the same church. This is my preference.
I am up with my daughter and it's almost 3am so let me make an attempt at a concise reply. I might not get to everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeker2211
All I found was the murder rate for that time period: the BJS doesn't make information that easily accessible. (Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide Trends) Sure it went up from 1963 to 1993 or so but then it made a precipitous drop to now which ironically are slightly above levels found in dun dun dunnnn 1963 your control year. This process nearly matching the pattern it followed from 1916ish to 1932. What were the drivers behind the uptick both times? I don't know and would need hours of research to go through and find out the story behind the numbers, and I'm sure you would need to too. But to chalk it up to "taking god out of the classroom" or "no longer teaching morality" seems lacking to me.
I used 1963 because 62 was the school year voluntary prayer was removed from schools due to the Supreme Court finding it unconstitutional. I don’t think that is the only reason for our decay but it is a part of the big picture, along with the erosion of the family and other factors too. I found a spread sheet on the census website and the numbers you saw I think are off a bit. Per 100k people the violent crime goes as follows (10 year increments to save time) in 1960 – 160.9, 1970 – 363.5, 1980 – 596.6, 1990 – 729.6, and 2000 – 506.5. We are in a steady decline (Thank God) but we are nowhere near the early 60’s (1962 -162.3, and 1963 – 168.2, 2008 – 454.5). The 1916 "analysis" is way off. since 1900 there was a slow steady increase and peaked in 1933 then a decrease into the 60's then a sharp increase of more than 300% over the same time period. You have to look at violent crime trends not just homicide. With advances in medicine many people are living through what would have been fatal in years past. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Crime_Rate.jpg
(sorry this ^ is from Wikipedia but it was the best graph I could find and it is accurate.) http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/.../2010smadb.pdf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeker2211
Actually, if your talking about the nation as a whole, isn't it prudent to examine the factors of similarities and differences of the micro to see how they affect the macro? You said it was Progressives that destroyed society or something to that effect: however the more "Progressive" places seem to be a hell of a lot more moral in practice. Is this because we don't teach our children religion in school? As a graduate of Catholic school which I attended for 8 years I highly doubt it, kids are kids and what goes in one ear goes out the other, and from my experience (and reading about behavioral psychology) morally oppressive environments creates more of a "forbidden fruit" element to immorality and an inability to reconcile slight lapses of conscience that may be needed to function in society.
If you want to be more specific about it. Major cities tend to have larger crime rates correct. They are also more liberal where as rural areas tend to have less crime and are generally more conservative. A few major cities bring down the stats for an entire state.
We clearly took different psych courses. Often rebellion occurs but the severity of it is lessened when raised in a stable home with parents who are involved with their child and encourage healthy socializing i.e. church groups or sports.
This a secular non political article that talks about the decline in social institutions. http://www.jrsa.org/pubs/forum/forum...=&id=4c2ed20e7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeker2211
My hypothesis is that it has more to do with economic opportunity and choices, helped by progressive social works that benefit the group. Yours, while valid as conjecture, would be so incredibly hard to prove.
Christian Principles? Are you talking about universals like hope and charity or specifics that built up ecumenically like the personification of God (swt) in Jesus Christ / eternal damnation / and charity? Speeches are nice, but when it came to brass tacks they noticeably omitted it in the function of Governance. A lot was taken verbatim from English Common Law (why precedents are so important to us) and Roman styled civic-structure.
This is the juice of the matter. I complain rarely, and going by this site might be a bad choice because a) its' the internet, and b) sometimes you gotta blow off steam so you go to item (a). Sure it's slightly more expensive here, but taxes play such a little role in it its' unfunny. Real estate seems to be the biggest factor (although there are still dirt cheap places in CT), as MSRP has played a role in equaling out prices across the nation for consumer goods. Plus places like Texas have oil, a much higher sales tax, and federal monies (guess where they get that money from??) to help them out. Everything seems to kind of balance out in the end so what becomes important is what you personally are looking for: this trying to game the system to "pay less" seems futile and I think that above everything else is holding us back.
Of course there is a point where people can be taxed too much, but this is not it, and we're really not as bad off as we think compared to other places nationally.
I agree we are not as bad off as a lot of places and for me the good out ways the bad. If you are truly interested in opposing viewpoints I encourage you to look into opposing ideas yourself and not take someone word for it. I used to be an Agnostic and a Socialist believe it or not but in studying the "enemy" I found truth. Always keep an open mind and not assume that someone is wrong because it is contrary to what you have learned.
I live in TX (trying to get out) and I LMAO when you made the comment about asking people about church membership... happens ALL the time.
It does happen all the time in southern states. Like I said in an earlier post, I get asked all the time which country club I belong to. I also get asked all the time where a good Kosher store is. I of course don't think it's a big deal.
People are going to think and act they way they were brought up, it's not a good or bad thing unless you decide it is.
Exactly my point. So if you don't belong to a church, you won't "fit in".
I'd be curious to see what the outcome would be if you attended that dinner but never joined any congregation. Would they continue to be your friend?
If you and I spent time at a certain locale and we had many of the same interest then of course naturally we would be friends. Some people love their church (no big deal) you shouldn't judge someone for asking you what your interest are. I think if you have a connection with someone you will continue to have that friend.
I think in this world many are all to be friends with Good people. I'm not saying all people who go to church are good. Naturally places like church are a good place to start.
Everybody wants to feel like their way is the right way. But really we all got it wrong. Acceptance with non-judgement is key to successful relationships.
Like I said in an earlier post, I get asked all the time which country club I belong to. I also get asked all the time where a good Kosher store is.
Do people in Ct. ask you these questions because you are Jewish? I've lived in Ct. nearly 30 years, and I never assumed country clubs were a Jewish thing. In fact I didn't even know there was such a thing as a "kosher store". Those questions seem rude to me, I'd certainly never ask anyone those questions, regardless of their religion.
I have noticed in the southern states though that churches can be a very social experience. But as for fitting in if you don't attend a church, that's not necessarily the case. There are so many denominations that the odds are still high you might not be the same denomination as someone you meet for the first time. There are churches all over the place there, certainly not everyone will belong to the same one. People are still eager to pull newbies "into the fold", though.
Exactly my point. So if you don't belong to a church, you won't "fit in".
I'd be curious to see what the outcome would be if you attended that dinner but never joined any congregation. Would they continue to be your friend?
Yes, I do think so as long as we have other common interests. Wait, not only do I think so, I experienced it. I was not a big fan of "Southern Churches" and have a bit of a rebelious reformed way of thinking that goes against the "religion machine" so believe me, I did not make many people happy with questions such as "Well if God protected Brother Pete from that horrible accident, did he abandon Brother Timmy who died on the side of the road"? What it ended up doing most times was opening up discussions and not getting me thrown out of houses or social circles.
And yes Martha, even some in our circle of friends were not part of the "church". Now granted there are social aspects that are simply uncompatible regardless of church. If secular friends are inviting me to "adult toy parties" and wanting to go out and get sloshed till 2am, no I'm not interested so I suppose those friendships would not take place on any level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlassoff
Which is easy to say when you are a Christian and in the very majority and tradition being expressed.
I'm not sure you can any more prove that the church question is people "just being nice" than I could prove it's about people making sure you're not Jewish or atheist. Would I still get invited to the dinner as a Jew? If so, would it be an attempt to evangelize me, since they know how to pray better than I do?
I find the church question, not to mention a lot of the southern "niceness" to be highly superficial and judgmental. Relationships run deeper here, are more meaningful, and are frequently so, in spite of not attending the same church. This is my preference.
Well, I can't speak for TX any more than you can speak for Central FL or NC. So in my experience, that has been case most times.
As for your preoccupation on specific religions...If you notice, I mentioned that religion and discussions about religion don't scare me. In fact, that's very much an American thing. Most people around the world don't blink an eye when discussing such things aside from some European countries.
I think your perception and how you handle the situation has everything to do with it. If someone looks at you and says literally "you pray wrong" well that's just rude and has nothing to do with religion. If a Jewish family was that rude to me, I would take it as them being rude people, not that Judaism sucks. However, if I'm sitting down with a Jewish family and they share with me the tenants of their faith, even if I disagree, I don't walk away from the discussion feeling "unclean" and frankly would probably learn something I didn't know.
Point in case: One of my customers who has become a friend and runs a dental office in Terryville also runs the Daar-ul-Ehsaan USA headquarters in attached building.
I've gotten to know a lot of their staff and members as I go there on a regular basis. We've had some deep discussions. Where we disagree, we respect each other, where we agree we find unity. I'm not offended in the least when they claim Jesus was a "good prophet" any more than they are because I think he was the Son of God.
What it comes down to is people here have become very anti-God and very intollerant on both sides and balk at any discussion other than what they wish to push onto others instead of comfortably believing what they do. Again, both sides.
For me, I choose to live life without fear or intimidation and that has freed me up to experience a lot more than I did living in a controlled bubble of being fearful of getting offended.
Or in the words of the Movie Stripes: "Lighten up Francis".
Oh and before anyone tries to run with the tax thing above (tryingtomakeit etc) let me just stop you here. It basically came down to revaulation (Frankly because the town is broke and turning over rocks IMO) that they pushed back 4 years on about 100K worth of equipment, and my lease company screwing up payments. In the end, it was heavy handed tactics by the town who are acting like thugs and have state law and statue to back them up...an unjust law IMO. They wouldn't give me three days to get documentation together and just removed the cash from my account. (Legally I might add and I had no rights, and no recourse by state law.) Now I have to fight for it and hope the "mob boss" will agree to refund some of it which I will not see till the Fall at best IF it even happens. Great stuff, I feel like expanding.
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In fact I didn't even know there was such a thing as a "kosher store". Those questions seem rude to me, I'd certainly never ask anyone those questions, regardless of their religion.
