[andthentherewere3]

Originally Posted by JayCT

Schools now teach that Columbus did not actually "discover" America. They did that even back when I was a kid and that was a LONG time ago. So enough of this politically correctness already. Jay

They also teach that he committed terrible atrocities and should not be revered.

[FutureTown]

The product of his time argument is so futile when you mix that up with other terrible human beings like Hitler.

Hitler was a product of his time. WW1 left Germany in such despair and anti-Jewish sentiments were always there in Europe (And even in America, too, actually). He was a great man for making use of the highway system, underwater warfare, and armored tank warfare which has inspired America greatly post WWII.

If it wasn't for Hitler, Eisenhower would have never pushed for the great U.S Interstate System. More road would have been like I-95 during rush hour. Talk about a hit to U.S infrastructure.

[AntonioR]

Originally Posted by mlassoff

Yes, he was a product of his time and, on balance, this has to be acknowledged.

He sure was.

However, native islanders in Hispanolia were treated as slaves, brutalized by Columbus and his proxies and even had their limbs cut off if they didn't collect enough "treasure".

Columbus himself never cut anyone's limbs off, in fact many of the men that were with him were getting ready to kill him, which says a lot about the people Columbus had to deal with. Lucky for him, a few days later he found land and his would be assassins gave up their hidden plan.

While the Tainos were a peaceful people, they were often attacked by Caribe tribes that often raided their villages, killed the men, took the women to impregnate, and they would take their kids and fatten them prior to eating them. In fact, the Tainos themselves asked for Columbus' help in fighting them off, many of them even trembled in fear from the mere mention of the Caribs. The Tainos did had the custom of when a man died burying his wife along with him while she was still alive.

And we are not even talking about the more warring civilizations such as the Aztecs and Maya, and the impression it must had on the Spaniards as they witnessed the mass sacrifices of hundreds of young men in 'celebration' for their arrival. In every Spanish expedition a priest went with them. Think what would had been the reaction in those times to see practices as cannibalism in one place, mass human sacrifices in other places, widespread polygamy; and a very long etc.

Point is that people can't say that they understand that Columbus was a man of his time and then turn a blind eye to that in order to crucify the man. Its almost as being shocked that slavery was practiced by the Spanish when in fact various Native American tribes, including the Aztecs and Mayans practiced slavery among themselves for millennia. We can't pretend to be disheartened by the European conquest when the Native American tribes themselves were constantly conquering each other with mass killings and subjection of thousands of people into slavery. How do you think the various Native American empires became empires?

He was celebrated as "discovering America" when he clearly did not.

I'm constantly discovering new and interesting places around the area and I tell the people I know about them, whom for the most part were oblivious these wonderful places (ranges from nice towns to restaurants, etc) until I pointed them out to them. I was the discoverer and everyone that learn about those places because of me know that. In fact, if they tell someone else about those places and the other person asks them how they discovered these places, they have to say that I told them about them. It doesn't mean other people didn't knew about those places before I did, but what it does means is that those people that learned about those places through my discovery have to credit me for going out of my way to discover these places. The fact that there are people that knew about those places before I discovered them means little to the people that learned about them because of me.

I'm sure you yourself discover things and you probably say it just like that too.

Columbus discovered America and there's no point in denying this. The Vikings and all the other people means nothing to those that followed suit after Columbus took a leap of faith and went to the unknown without knowing if he and his men were going to live to tell the story.

There is no reason to put him on a level with Washington, Lincoln and Martin Luther King. Times change and blaming "political correctness" is a silly crutch when one simply doesn't want to change with the times.

Columbus is at a higher level than Washington (a slave owner by the way), Lincoln, or Martin Luther King. Without Columbus, none of those men would had even been born. In fact, neither you nor me would be here, neither would the USA, and all the good things that we now take for granted.

[AntonioR]

Originally Posted by FutureTown

The product of his time argument is so futile when you mix that up with other terrible human beings like Hitler.

Hitler was a product of his time. WW1 left Germany in such despair and anti-Jewish sentiments were always there in Europe (And even in America, too, actually). He was a great man for making use of the highway system, underwater warfare, and armored tank warfare which has inspired America greatly post WWII.

If it wasn't for Hitler, Eisenhower would have never pushed for the great U.S Interstate System. More road would have been like I-95 during rush hour. Talk about a hit to U.S infrastructure.

Hitler was not a man of his time. Had he been one, he wouldn't had been confronted by men in his very own time.

[mlassoff]

Originally Posted by AntonioR

Columbus is at a higher level than Washington (a slave owner by the way), Lincoln, or Martin Luther King. Without Columbus, none of those men would had even been born. In fact, neither you nor me would be here, neither would the USA, and all the good things that we now take for granted.

I think this is a real stretch. The reality is that if Columbus hadn't come to the continent, someone else would have. I wouldn't be here if not for Hitler either... My Grandparents met escaping the Nazis. I'm don't think we need a holiday honoring him.

[mlassoff]

Originally Posted by AntonioR

Hitler was not a man of his time. Had he been one, he wouldn't had been confronted by men in his very own time.

Umm.. Couldn't you make the same argument about Columbus? I respect your knowledge of history, but, I dont think you're bring internally consistent here.

[AntonioR]

I'm sure some of the people tearing down Columbus would had reacted as the Spanish conquistadors did if they were to be part of those expedition and witness this (to give one example):



Please, don't say that you wouldn't had interfered along with the Spaniards because it was their culture or tradition. Today, many of those that shred Columbus to pieces are very vocal about eradicating female genital mutilation in many cultures in Africa and elsewhere where its part of their traditional culture. Many of you would probably even support imposing heavy punishments in those societies in order to make them stop and be more like us. Its the same thing, just a different time period with different prevailing morals.

[AntonioR]

Originally Posted by mlassoff

Umm.. Couldn't you make the same argument about Columbus? I respect your knowledge of history, but, I dont think you're bring internally consistent here.

Columbus was never confronted for 'chopping the hands of Tainos' because he didn't chopped anyone's hands. He did experienced the treason of the men that accompanied him, which eventually lead for him to be arrested and taken back to Spain in chains. It was all based on fabrications regarding other issues.

The one's that were criticized were many of the men that accompanied Columbus, you know the one's that were ready to kill him and later treason him? Those were the ones committing excesses and the Spaniards themselves were the one's that criticized them for that, not Columbus.

[AntonioR]

Originally Posted by mlassoff

I think this is a real stretch. The reality is that if Columbus hadn't come to the continent, someone else would have. I wouldn't be here if not for Hitler either... My Grandparents met escaping the Nazis. I'm don't think we need a holiday honoring him.

Sure, but in order for everything that happened since then all the way to our current reality, Columbus needed to discover America where and when be did. Change just one tiny aspect and the end result is completely different.

Take an airplane and veer it slightly to the right, despite that it was a tiny change, the destination is going to be completely different.

In order for all of us to had been born, the people that came before us had to meet when they did and that depends directly on everything else that happened before them, Columbus being the base of it all as far as people and society in the Western Hemisphere is concerned. In fact, the whole world was impacted by Columbus' discovery, because the riches that went out of South America to Spain eventually made its was to China and then back to Europe, finally used as financing for the Industrial Revolution and modern life as we know it.

[dazzleman]

Originally Posted by JayCT

It seems that the Bridgeport Board of Education has changed the Columbus Day holiday to Indigenous People Day. A new temporary Board member brought it up to them and they fell for it. To me this is just another stupid politically correct maneuver to appease a vocal few. I hope the Italian community in Bridgeport goes after the Board for this stupid move. I am tired of having to constantly apologize for history. Columbus is credited with making Europe aware of North America. Whether that is considered to be discovering it or not is immaterial. To change a long time holiday is just insulting and sends just as poor a message, if not worse, than keeping it the day to honor someone who got us where we are today. What do you think? Jay

Columbus Day now

It's nice to know they have time for this nonsense when only 20% of their students are academically proficient.