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CTDOT has estimated that tolls could generate up to $1 billion a year. If 40% of that money comes from out of state drivers, that is $400 million a year we do not get now. Do you really want to lose $400 million a year?
Right now all money from the gas tax goes into the Transportation Fund. It was determined that it was not enough to support the transportation system we have and projects needed so the state directed some of the sales tax to bolster the fund temporarily until a decision is made on how to address the shortfall. That decision could be tolls or it could be an increase in the gas tax. It could be nothing. The fund has sufficient funds to go for several years without additional money which is why Lamont is proposing to eliminate the sales tax diversion. Jay
" If 40 % of that money ..."
And that's the problem. The state will spend millions to set up the system, which will take around three years, in the hopes of getting the revenue.At a tremendous cost. Meanwhile, a simple increase of the gas tax, especially now that prices are low and pretty stable, would yield immediate revenue.That's without spending a dime. Just in time for driving season. In three years we will be placing 40 % of our burden on out of state drivers. What happens if we fall short ? The only answer is to increase the amount of the toll. Another burden on the working class.
In three years there could be an economic downward spiral , reducing tourism . In three years, with the billion dollar tax increase, more residents may leave for good. With Casinos in other states , in three years there may be more out of state drivers that decide not to visit the CT Casinos.
How can you ask about losing $ 400 million a year , when it is speculation ? Losing $ 400 million year means you have the $ 400 million on hand to lose.
And that's the problem. The state will spend millions to set up the system, which will take around three years, in the hopes of getting the revenue.At a tremendous cost. Meanwhile, a simple increase of the gas tax, especially now that prices are low and pretty stable, would yield immediate revenue.That's without spending a dime. Just in time for driving season. In three years we will be placing 40 % of our burden on out of state drivers. What happens if we fall short ? The only answer is to increase the amount of the toll. Another burden on the working class.
In three years there could be an economic downward spiral , reducing tourism . In three years, with the billion dollar tax increase, more residents may leave for good. With Casinos in other states , in three years there may be more out of state drivers that decide not to visit the CT Casinos.
How can you ask about losing $ 400 million a year , when it is speculation ? Losing $ 400 million year means you have the $ 400 million on hand to lose.
So you want the residents of our state to pay more in gas taxes so out of state drivers can continue to use our highways for free???
If the economy collapses as you suggest, won't revenue from the gas tax go down too? It is highly unlikely that the economy will drop that dramatically. If you look at the history of traffic volumes on our highways, they did drop after the last recession BUT it was not that significant. Even then it will likely return to higher levels when the economy improves.
Remember what we do now affects our state for decades. If we follow your logic, we should just do nothing and let our highways remain clogged and falling apart. Jay
So you want the residents of our state to pay more in gas taxes so out of state drivers can continue to use our highways for free???
If the economy collapses as you suggest, won't revenue from the gas tax go down too? It is highly unlikely that the economy will drop that dramatically. If you look at the history of traffic volumes on our highways, they did drop after the last recession BUT it was not that significant. Even then it will likely return to higher levels when the economy improves.
Remember what we do now affects our state for decades. If we follow your logic, we should just do nothing and let our highways remain clogged and falling apart. Jay
In either increased gas tax or toll scenario CT residents will pay more. The question should be how much more additional cost(s) should CT residents endure in order to capture revenue from out of Staters. The legality makes them not mutually exclusive.
So you want the residents of our state to pay more in gas taxes so out of state drivers can continue to use our highways for free???
If the economy collapses as you suggest, won't revenue from the gas tax go down too? It is highly unlikely that the economy will drop that dramatically. If you look at the history of traffic volumes on our highways, they did drop after the last recession BUT it was not that significant. Even then it will likely return to higher levels when the economy improves.
Remember what we do now affects our state for decades. If we follow your logic, we should just do nothing and let our highways remain clogged and falling apart. Jay
Yes.Relying on out of state drivers is speculative. Building tolls, will call for a significant investment for building and maintaining , and additional staff to maintain the endeavor. Then there is the issue of collection from those out of state drivers. Currently , many CT drivers are not paying their charges from out of state, they are delinquent. Free? How do you know they are all drive by people? Maybe they are spending money here. Again, more speculation.
I never used the word" collapse". I said an " economic downward spiral ". If the revenue goes down, the tax can be raised. Quickly, efficiently , without much cost compared to what we will have to recover from the added expense of the toll infrastructure. And where are the millions needed to build the tolls , and the related support services? If it is being borrowed , there is debt service to consider.
Here's the logic. Why spend millions , add employees, when you don't have to ? Simply raise the gas tax, monitor the amount of revenue that comes in and adjust as necessary. If we continue the path we are on, becoming more and more energy independent with gasoline and diesel , prices may actually decrease, and the tax may be able to be reduced. That would be speculation of course, but on the positive side.
March of 2018 the average price in CT was $ 2.71 per gallon. Today it is $ 2.48. We could have made up the difference since then and put the money towards the budget.
My logic is flexible and adjustable, does not require any additional investment , staff, maintenance , or debt service.
You could also flip that around and say we will be spending $600 million a year. Do we really want to spend an additional $600 million per year? With no guarantee it won't be more that is paid by CT residents- who knows how accurate the estimates are for the out of state contributions?- or that the gas tax won't also be raised?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayCT
CTDOT has estimated that tolls could generate up to $1 billion a year. If 40% of that money comes from out of state drivers, that is $400 million a year we do not get now. Do you really want to lose $400 million a year? Jay
Yes.Relying on out of state drivers is speculative. Building tolls, will call for a significant investment for building and maintaining , and additional staff to maintain the endeavor. Then there is the issue of collection from those out of state drivers. Currently , many CT drivers are not paying their charges from out of state, they are delinquent. Free? How do you know they are all drive by people? Maybe they are spending money here. Again, more speculation.
I never used the word" collapse". I said an " economic downward spiral ". If the revenue goes down, the tax can be raised. Quickly, efficiently , without much cost compared to what we will have to recover from the added expense of the toll infrastructure. And where are the millions needed to build the tolls , and the related support services? If it is being borrowed , there is debt service to consider.
Here's the logic. Why spend millions , add employees, when you don't have to ? Simply raise the gas tax, monitor the amount of revenue that comes in and adjust as necessary. If we continue the path we are on, becoming more and more energy independent with gasoline and diesel , prices may actually decrease, and the tax may be able to be reduced. That would be speculation of course, but on the positive side.
March of 2018 the average price in CT was $ 2.71 per gallon. Today it is $ 2.48. We could have made up the difference since then and put the money towards the budget.
My logic is flexible and adjustable, does not require any additional investment , staff, maintenance , or debt service.
As studies have shown, the amount of revenue that tolls can generate will exceed what it costs to implement them. That is why so many states have tolls and more and more are considering them. Even if it takes a few years to pay off the cost of installing them, it will be worth it to have a more reliable source of revenue. As I noted earlier, gas sales have been flat and will likely go down as drivers switch to more fuel efficient and alternative fuel vehicles. Given this, your proposal to raise the gas tax is a short term solution to a long term problem.
The reason the gas tax has not been raised in more than 20 years is that, for some reason, MOST people are opposed to raising it. This has been pushed off the table a long time ago. Also keep in mind that it is questionable at best, if gas prices will remain as low as they are right now. That will impact more state residents than if we put up tolls and got the drivers using ouor roads to pay for them. Jay
You could also flip that around and say we will be spending $600 million a year. Do we really want to spend an additional $600 million per year? With no guarantee it won't be more that is paid by CT residents- who knows how accurate the estimates are for the out of state contributions?- or that the gas tax won't also be raised?
Even if it generates half that amount (and it likely won't be), it is still a significant amount of money that we don't have access to today. There is no guarantee that the gas tax will generate enough money either. As I have noted before, revenue from the gas tax has been flat and is likely to go down as vehicles become more and more fuel efficient and alternative fuels are used. How do you compensate for that? Keep raising the gas tax? I don't think so. Jay
As studies have shown, the amount of revenue that tolls can generate will exceed what it costs to implement them. That is why so many states have tolls and more and more are considering them. Even if it takes a few years to pay off the cost of installing them, it will be worth it to have a more reliable source of revenue. As I noted earlier, gas sales have been flat and will likely go down as drivers switch to more fuel efficient and alternative fuel vehicles. Given this, your proposal to raise the gas tax is a short term solution to a long term problem. CAFE has been readjusted by the Administration.
The reason the gas tax has not been raised in more than 20 years is that, for some reason, MOST people are opposed to raising it. This has been pushed off the table a long time ago. Also keep in mind that it is questionable at best, if gas prices will remain as low as they are right now. That will impact more state residents than if we put up tolls and got the drivers using ouor roads to pay for them. Jay
Studies. Sometimes i have to wonder. Were those studies done specifically to the State of CT? CT is unique. No other state has its culture, history, topography, etc. and most important, people. If we were to make decisions based on studies , we would have to change every time a new one comes out. Like I said previously, those studies in the early 1970s said we would be out of oil by now, and in a mini ice age.
Studies can certainly be helpful, and may have weight regarding a decision. But also important is the many other variables and factors that are involved.
If most people in CT are against raising it in CT, were they given the alternative solution of having 50 plus toll gantries in their state? Every trip to work, the movies, the Doctor's office , your kids sports games,etc. may come at a higher price. Then the consideration of the traffic on the side roads to circumvent the tolls.
Are all of these issues provided when the decision is made?
Of course there is never a guarantee regarding a commodity, but all signs point to a stable gasoline market, with refineries able to more than keep up with demand. If we keep Democrats out of the way with national energy policies, the future looks even brighter.
Alternative fuel vehicles are not practical for the average American. They have a long way to go. Did you see the news about Tesla yesterday ? Delivery promises not being met. Consumer Reports says they have " reliability issues". If you follow the automotive and truck market, you will discover that passenger cars, and smaller vehicles are out of favor with current consumer trends. PIckups and SUVs. They burn more fuel. That's more tax dollars that a Prius would generate. Pickup and SUVs are what Obama tried to get Americans out of by squandering tax dollars to bribe them. 10 years later, the pickups and SUVs are leading the pack in sales. So much for trying to force consumers to buy what the Government wants, even with a bribe.
A Prius and an SUV will pay the same toll. A Prius will use much less gas than an SUV. The SUV will generate more tax dollars per mile. We are losing time. We could be bringing in millions more every day.
As far as out of state drivers, like I said previously , if we give people a reason to come to CT, stay and spend money, we won't have to nickel or dime them at a toll. Having a reason to stay here may lead to economic expansion, jobs and growth. Sure CT drivers may pay a little more per gallon for roads that out of state people use. That's nothing sort of generous. That may be part of motivating people to come back, and come often.
In 2020 , a Legoland will be opening in Goshen New York . CT residents can take 84 all the way there, with only a toll on the Newburgh Bridge. Do you think they will draw some people to spend money there? Maybe they will have to buy a tank of gas when they are there.
You keep saying you’ve noted before that gas tax revenue has been flat. I may have missed where you posted the data to support that claim. What are you basing it on? I’ve seen a study that purports that, adjusted for inflation, revenue is up 20% since 2000. I’ll find the report and post later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayCT
Even if it generates half that amount (and it likely won't be), it is still a significant amount of money that we don't have access to today. There is no guarantee that the gas tax will generate enough money either. As I have noted before, revenue from the gas tax has been flat and is likely to go down as vehicles become more and more fuel efficient and alternative fuels are used. How do you compensate for that? Keep raising the gas tax? I don't think so. Jay
Studies. Sometimes i have to wonder. Were those studies done specifically to the State of CT? CT is unique. No other state has its culture, history, topography, etc. and most important, people. If we were to make decisions based on studies , we would have to change every time a new one comes out. Like I said previously, those studies in the early 1970s said we would be out of oil by now, and in a mini ice age.
Studies can certainly be helpful, and may have weight regarding a decision. But also important is the many other variables and factors that are involved.
If most people in CT are against raising it in CT, were they given the alternative solution of having 50 plus toll gantries in their state? Every trip to work, the movies, the Doctor's office , your kids sports games,etc. may come at a higher price. Then the consideration of the traffic on the side roads to circumvent the tolls.
Are all of these issues provided when the decision is made?
Of course there is never a guarantee regarding a commodity, but all signs point to a stable gasoline market, with refineries able to more than keep up with demand. If we keep Democrats out of the way with national energy policies, the future looks even brighter.
Alternative fuel vehicles are not practical for the average American. They have a long way to go. Did you see the news about Tesla yesterday ? Delivery promises not being met. Consumer Reports says they have " reliability issues". If you follow the automotive and truck market, you will discover that passenger cars, and smaller vehicles are out of favor with current consumer trends. PIckups and SUVs. They burn more fuel. That's more tax dollars that a Prius would generate. Pickup and SUVs are what Obama tried to get Americans out of by squandering tax dollars to bribe them. 10 years later, the pickups and SUVs are leading the pack in sales. So much for trying to force consumers to buy what the Government wants, even with a bribe.
A Prius and an SUV will pay the same toll. A Prius will use much less gas than an SUV. The SUV will generate more tax dollars per mile. We are losing time. We could be bringing in millions more every day.
As far as out of state drivers, like I said previously , if we give people a reason to come to CT, stay and spend money, we won't have to nickel or dime them at a toll. Having a reason to stay here may lead to economic expansion, jobs and growth. Sure CT drivers may pay a little more per gallon for roads that out of state people use. That's nothing sort of generous. That may be part of motivating people to come back, and come often.
In 2020 , a Legoland will be opening in Goshen New York . CT residents can take 84 all the way there, with only a toll on the Newburgh Bridge. Do you think they will draw some people to spend money there? Maybe they will have to buy a tank of gas when they are there.
It is not just studies that show that tolls pay for themselves and generate revenue, it has been the actual experience of every state that has then. There is a long history to back that up. Instead of arguing with me about it and keep posting questionable reasons to not install tolls, use your time to educate yourself on them. You might just learn something.
And while you are at it, research the future of transportation fuel and what the future holds. Connecticut is a small state with most out of state drivers coming from New York, New Jersey and Massachusetts. You could have all the attractions you want to draw people here but they still will not buy gas here because they simply don’t have to. Pretty simple. Jay
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