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Old 05-23-2014, 10:00 AM
 
Location: NJ
22,744 posts, read 28,613,182 times
Reputation: 14646

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Quote:
Originally Posted by apexgds View Post
Even if there were a sign, so what? It's a business owner's prerogative to not allow patrons to bring guns into their establishment.
and its everyone else's prerogative to criticize that decision.

"gun free zones" are a funny concept. its pretty simple to draw the conclusion that criminals arent going to abide by that suggestion. so in the end you ensure that only criminals will have guns.
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Cold Springs, NV
4,576 posts, read 9,096,180 times
Reputation: 4997
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
and its everyone else's prerogative to criticize that decision.

"gun free zones" are a funny concept. its pretty simple to draw the conclusion that criminals arent going to abide by that suggestion. so in the end you ensure that only criminals will have guns.
yeah, kinda like the new Georgia law just passed allowing guns everywhere. the only gun free zone they voted for was the Georgia state congress. Funny how they feel they can be everywhere except where they work?

More gun nut hypocrisy!
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:08 AM
PDD
 
Location: The Sand Hills of NC
8,776 posts, read 14,163,149 times
Reputation: 11850
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
The problem I see in discussions such as this one is that the "arm everyone" camp always assumes that issues concerning gun crime will ALWAYS involve only two or three people and the criminal can be clearly identified.

But one day, perhaps soon, there will be a situation like the Aurora movie theater shooting. Only this time, multiple theater patrons will be armed - because everyone carrying a gun is a lot safer.

You know what will happen? Something like this:

The criminal shoots his first victim. Patrons begin to panic slightly - everyone gets up out of their seats and heads for one of the exits. Those who are armed draw their weapons.

Someone down the aisle sees a person with a gun, thinks its the original shooter, and drops the innocent guy who was just trying to protect his family.

A third armed person sees the second guy shoot the first guy and blows HIM away thinking HE'S actually the shooter - and now he's targeting other people with guns! Meanwhile full-blown panic ensues because three people have been killed - and blam, a fourth person drops, a victim of the actual criminal. Panicked themselves and with little training, both armed civilians turn to face the direction of the shot, sees a guy with a cellphone, but in the gloom of the theater think its a gun and fires at him. One shot misses and kills some kid who just happened to get in the way, the other shot drops the innocent with the cellphone.

The criminal, who is out in the hall shooting patrons as they squeeze out of the theater in a blind panic, kills two or three more people, blocking the door with bodies. The patrons turn and head for a different exit. Meanwhile, some guy who was taking a leak comes out of the restroom and sees the killer, pulls his gun -- and is immediately cut down by the cops because they think HE'S the one shooting into the crowd. Oh yeah, the killer then says he was just a concerned citizen with a gun ... and phew, good thing you shot the bad guy (he nods to the innocent guy who just came out of the restroom) because I didn't even see him coming. Sure officer, I'll be happy to give you my statement now ...
^^^^^^ this is more likely to happen than "law abiding" CCW citizens saving the day.

If you want to carry to save you or your family that is fine, just don't try to be the hero of the day.

Yours is the best common sense post on this thread.
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:11 AM
 
7,962 posts, read 3,742,667 times
Reputation: 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by headingtoDenver View Post
Here is my thought. Lets say there were 3 customers in the restaurant that carried guns. What do we think would have happened? Either the same robbery would have occurred with no change in outcome, guns would have been drawn and possibly the robbers would have been thwarted, or there would have been a shootout and who knows how many people would have been injured or killed. Or another thought, the legal gun owners would have been robbed of their guns and now there are more guns on the streets in the hands of criminals.

The shootout scenario is what scares me. Majority of robberies come and go. The robbers get the money and nobody gets hurt. The key thing there is nobody gets hurt. You add a hot head with a CCW into the mix who is generally untrained in high stress life/death scenarios and people WILL get hurt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not_liking_FL View Post
This.

I guess if the kitchen workers had been carrying(while working) they could have possibly thwarted the three armed robbers who took them by surprise. Or maybe one of the patrons being evacuated to safety could have stormed the kitchen with his gun drawn and have a shootout with the robbers while all the employees are stuck in the crossfire.

Sometimes logic escapes the gun nuts.
While headingtoDenver brings up some valid observations, you both miss the point of why people want CCW options without being "gun nuts". For starters, not every robbery goes like this. In some cases the owners/workers/patrons are executed to eliminate witnesses. Other times they are killed just because the criminals are evil sadistic scum.

So while you can correctly point out that no one was killed in this particular instance, don't forget about the massacres that have occurred where criminals have casually executed numerous unarmed people rendered incapable of defending themselves. All due to a fear that armed citizens will result in the OK Corral type of shootouts.

As an FYI, Florida went to CCW back in the late 80's with many a liberal reporter and anti-gun person declaring that "blood would flow in the streets" and with FL "turning into the Wild West". Time has proved them wrong as the overwhelming majority of CCW holders have never committed any crime, nor discharged their weapons. Even a few of the reporters who are still around have admitted their beliefs were mistaken.

`
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Cold Springs, NV
4,576 posts, read 9,096,180 times
Reputation: 4997
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector1 View Post
While headingtoDenver brings up some valid observations, you both miss the point of why people want CCW options without being "gun nuts". For starters, not every robbery goes like this. In some cases the owners/workers/patrons are executed to eliminate witnesses. Other times they are killed just because the criminals are evil sadistic scum.

So while you can correctly point out that no one was killed in this particular instance, don't forget about the massacres that have occurred where criminals have casually executed numerous unarmed people rendered incapable of defending themselves. All due to a fear that armed citizens will result in the OK Corral type of shootouts.

As an FYI, Florida went to CCW back in the late 80's with many a liberal reporter and anti-gun person declaring that "blood would flow in the streets" and with FL "turning into the Wild West". Time has proved them wrong as the overwhelming majority of CCW holders have never committed any crime, nor discharged their weapons. Even a few of the reporters who are still around have admitted their beliefs were mistaken.

`
Per capita gun crimes are higher in states with more liberal gun laws on average.

Gun violence in the United States by state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Chicago
3,395 posts, read 3,568,413 times
Reputation: 7773
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyRider View Post
It is so much easier to say this when YOU weren't there. So you really prefer to sit in a restaurant where no one is allowed to carry while it is being assaulted by a gun man? You don't even want the chance?
I'm sorry, but were YOU there?

If you weren't, then what are YOU running your mouth about?
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Central Maine
2,868 posts, read 2,848,150 times
Reputation: 3976
Maybe they didn't read the sign.
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:39 AM
 
2,181 posts, read 2,039,749 times
Reputation: 3138
Quote:
Originally Posted by apexgds View Post
I disagree. I believe if we have more guns, we're going to see more violence.

The pro-gun crowd thinks that all gun owners will be these perfectly well behaved citizens who wouldn't dream of drawing unless their life were in danger. How about the retired cop who shot and killed a man because he was assaulted with popcorn?

I think what we'll see an increase of is people falsely claiming that they felt their life was in danger so they can justify the results of their short temper.
You say "will", as if gun owners aren't already in existence, like concealed carry isn't already a "thing" in this country. We already have plenty of direct evidence that concealed carry reduces violent crime. People such as yourself were all up in arms when florida legalized concealed carry, were calling it the "gunshine state", that it would become the modern wild west. Yeah, violent crime plummeted right after it went into affect and has steadily dropped since. Good call there.

And where are the most people murdered? I believe Chicago, a place with incredibly strict gun laws and no concealed carry. I guess the criminals don't care about laws, but do care about their potential victims carrying pistols, who would've thought.
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:41 AM
 
2,181 posts, read 2,039,749 times
Reputation: 3138
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDD View Post
^^^^^^ this is more likely to happen than "law abiding" CCW citizens saving the day.

If you want to carry to save you or your family that is fine, just don't try to be the hero of the day.

Yours is the best common sense post on this thread.
law abiding ccw citizens "save the day" every single day in this country.
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
13,703 posts, read 8,694,315 times
Reputation: 11272
Quote:
Originally Posted by apexgds View Post
You assume that I've never been in a situation that involves guns. I still don't want to carry and don't want to be around them.
I am afraid you have no choice in this. The gunman isn't going to ask you if you want to be around his gun. So let me get this straight. You wan to be at a restaurant where the ONLY gun on premises is the one pointing at you and your family.
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