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You don't accept the view of many religious people that marriage is a unique sacramental or covenant relationship, an institution established by God. To those people, it is a burden on their beliefs to acknowledge, participate with, assist, a relationship that by definition conflicts with what they believe is God's command that marriage is exclusively between a woman and man.
You can mock that belief, argue that a state law matters more, whatever. But as to your specific question, even if a florist or baker provided services for St. Valentine's Day or birthdays, marriage might be on a different level altogether.
Do you acknowledge that marriage is also a legal contract, the only way possible for two people to enjoy certain legal benefits? Do you acknowledge that many people do not view marriage as a unique sacramental or covenant relationship, an institution established by God?
Then they should either get out of that business or set up a nominational, invitations-only flower club... if such thing is even legal.
While I respect their beliefs, they have a number of certain obligations under the law while running a business. If the law gets to the point where their obligations interfere with their beliefs, they need to close the business. This is very simple.
No, you don't respect their beliefs. If you did, you'd welcome some type of relatively minor accommodations to them, such as permitting a religious-based marriage exempting from the non-discrimination laws re sexual orientation.
Gay people absolutely deserve the right to have protection from public accommodation discrimination.
But, cripes, from the outrage & propaganda, you'd think that gays can't buy a flower or a donut or are dying outside drugstores that won't serve them.
That sounds pretty rude to me, not something I'd expect from the "love thy neighbor" crowd. And I find it very easy to equate sexual preference to skin color since they're both things a person is born with.
What is the severe burden on one's religious beliefs to be incurred by selling someone a product they've sold them dozens of times before?
"Love thy neighbor" does not equate to embracing their sinful actions. You think religious people should love a person engaging in pedophilia or bestiality? Those sinful acts are listed right along with homosexuality in the Torah.
If you don't think society should embrace all the sexual activities that the Torah sets out as abominations and moral sins (which includes incest, pedophilia, homosexuality, rape and bestiality), then why do you have the right to condemn others for their belief that it is against God to embrace all of the sexual activities that the Torah sets out as abominations and moral sins.
I am sure if a Christian/Jew/Muslim, refused to provide services (cake, flowers, etc.) for a getting out of jail party for a repeat child rapist, there would be no bullying or threats to that business owner.
I am equally sure that no one would be demeaning a business owner who refused to cater a Night of Bestiality event either.
"Love thy neighbor" does not equate to embracing their sinful actions. You think religious people should love a person engaging in pedophilia or bestiality? Those sinful acts are listed right along with homosexuality in the Torah.
If you don't think society should embrace all the sexual activities that the Torah sets out as abominations and moral sins (which includes incest, pedophilia, homosexuality, rape and bestiality), then why do you have the right to condemn others for their belief that it is against God to embrace all of the sexual activities that the Torah sets out as abominations and moral sins.
I am sure if a Christian/Jew/Muslim, refused to provide services (cake, flowers, etc.) for a getting out of jail party for a repeat child rapist, there would be no bullying or threats to that business owner.
I am equally sure that no one would be demeaning a business owner who refused to cater a Night of Bestiality event either.
Hypocrites!
Bestiality is illegal; gay marriage is not (in Washington).
No, you don't respect their beliefs. If you did, you'd welcome some type of relatively minor accommodations to them, such as permitting a religious-based marriage exempting from the non-discrimination laws re sexual orientation.
Gay people absolutely deserve the right to have protection from public accommodation discrimination.
But, cripes, from the outrage & propaganda, you'd think that gays can't buy a flower or a donut or are dying outside drugstores that won't serve them.
I think it is possible to respect someone's beliefs without believing it extends to violating the rights of others. IMO, that is the line separating "OK" from "not OK".
Do you acknowledge that marriage is also a legal contract, the only way possible for two people to enjoy certain legal benefits? Do you acknowledge that many people do not view marriage as a unique sacramental or covenant relationship, an institution established by God?
Yes & Yes.
I'm not among those who view marriage as a God-inspired unique sacramental or covenant relationship, but I know that many people sincerely believe that it is.
I'd be happy to serve a ssm if I had a business. However, the question was why Some business owners will serve gays Until it comes to marriage.
Do you acknowledge that marriage is also a legal contract, the only way possible for two people to enjoy certain legal benefits? Do you acknowledge that many people do not view marriage as a unique sacramental or covenant relationship, an institution established by God?
If marriage is a legal contract, then society has establish requirements to engage in that contract, including the age of the individuals engaging in the contract, the consanguinity of the individuals engaging in the contract, the sex of the individuals engaging in the contract, the mental capacity of the individuals to the contract.
Agreed?
If that is the case, then if one group wants to change the requirements needed to engage in that contractual agreement, why should any other group be denied the same rights to change other requirements to enter into a marital contract?
If the requirement that the individuals must be of the opposite sex to enter into a marital contract can change, why can't the consanguinity requirements change? Why are two adult family members denied the same rights to change the requirements for individuals to enter marital contracts? Why can't the mental competence requirement by changed? Age requirements...if a coalition of 10-12 year olds got together and argued that their civil rights were being trampled because they were not allowed the right to marry like everyone else is, and it was a matter of marriage equality...how could their argument be denied if it is merely a matter of changing the requirements to enter into a marital contract?
If the argument by gays is to change certain requirements established by society for individuals to enter into a marital contract, how can arguments to change other requirements not be just as valid?
"Love thy neighbor" does not equate to embracing their sinful actions. You think religious people should love a person engaging in pedophilia or bestiality? Those sinful acts are listed right along with homosexuality in the Torah.
If you don't think society should embrace all the sexual activities that the Torah sets out as abominations and moral sins (which includes incest, pedophilia, homosexuality, rape and bestiality), then why do you have the right to condemn others for their belief that it is against God to embrace all of the sexual activities that the Torah sets out as abominations and moral sins.
I am sure if a Christian/Jew/Muslim, refused to provide services (cake, flowers, etc.) for a getting out of jail party for a repeat child rapist, there would be no bullying or threats to that business owner.
I am equally sure that no one would be demeaning a business owner who refused to cater a Night of Bestiality event either.
Hypocrites!
The Torah also says that women must bear a biological son or daughter. While most branches of Judaism (including my own) treat that as a minor issue, I have met Rabbis who have told me point blank that they would not marry me because I am unable to have children. Should an ultra-Orthodox Jew be able to deny to make my wedding cake because I am infertile? Should anyone be surprised if that was to happen and their business was shut down due to bad press?
The Torah also has strict dietary laws, but you don't see us trying to ban pork products in the US nor discriminate against the vast majority of people in this country who do not follow those rules.
As far as the bolded - what does that have to do with anything? I would make the argument that most bakeries don't bake "getting out of jail" cakes. If they made that type of cake and then refused to serve a black or gay ex-con, that would be a problem.
I think it is possible to respect someone's beliefs without believing it extends to violating the rights of others. IMO, that is the line separating "OK" from "not OK".
In most states, anti-discrimination laws don't apply to sexual orientation in public accommodations.
Besides, using the word 'rights' is trickery. You refer to not serving a ssm as a 'belief' and the purchase of flowers as a 'right.' The 'right' to buy flowers or a cake for a wedding is as far down a list of 'rights' as you can go. The real 'right' should be for an individual to refrain from an act that violates their free exercise of religion.
Let me throw out a non-SSM, non-gay, non-Hitler analogy out there to see how people feel....
There are members of the animal rights community who are adamantly opposed to humans "enslaving" animals for their own needs. Be it mere companionship as a pet, service dogs, police and/or military dogs, these people fervently believe all of these are morally and ethically wrong.
So, suppose that due to these beliefs, a shop owner denies service to a blind person with a seeing eye dog.
Under the ADA, this would be illegal, I believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati
Analogy? That's a real-world example, more or less. However, in this case the proprietors who were refusing to serve customers with service dogs were Muslims citing their religious objections to dealing with dogs. These were taxi drivers, and they were also refusing to serve people transporting alcohol. In particular, these cab drivers were working at MSP, the largest airport in the Midwest after O'Hare (background - in the Twin Cities, a great many taxi drivers come from the local Somali community, which is Muslim). http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2827800&page=1
And, you guessed it - there was nary a peep from Christians when this happened, and it made national news. At least, there were no Christians speaking out on behalf of the Muslims. Locally, plenty of them chimed in with outrage that these Muslims didn't want to follow the law. They did not for a moment see this as discriminatory. I have no doubt that many of the Christians whining and pouting about proprietors in Washington having to obey the law wouldn't for a moment demand the same special treatment for those Muslim cab drivers. So much for those actual principles they claim to hold.
Those cab drivers got exactly what they deserved - the choice to serve customers as required by law, or to find another line of work. And that's exactly is deserved by anti-gay Christians business-folk who try and hide their bigoted malice behind a shield of piety.
Great post!
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