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Several people have mentioned the terrible Detroit schools and their solutions to making them better. The schools aren't the problem. The culture of the city residents and many of the kids that go to those schools are the problem. Until and unless the culture changes, nothing will change. You can have the best teachers, facilities, and programs this country has to offer. But none of those things matter if you have classrooms full of kids who are more interested in causing trouble than learning. And if there's no recourse to deal with a large amount of disruptive, problem kids, the schools will continue to be among the worst in the country.
As a teacher ITA. I teach in a good district and I can testify that if you put even 4 trouble makers who feed off of each other in the same class learning sharply diminishes. Those who value education try to leave poor school districts so what is left is parents who don't care or who lack the means to do anything. I agree that you'd have to address behavior issues in the classroom to have any impact. Unfortunately, that takes money the schools don't have.
The Cleveland charter schools from the company Breakthrough Schools have been very successful with inner city students. They're extremely focused on discipline and have longer than normal school days. They have better test scores than the state average for NON-minority students, and they get less money per student than the Cleveland Public Schools.
It sounds like Detroit is not very open to charter schools. Why is that? I have a sense that it's mostly because of opposition from the teachers union. This was the case in Cleveland as well, but the competition from the charters, combined with tough compromises between the Union and the city, have actually led to some innovative and improved Cleveland Public Schools. Competition, and holding schools accountable is a good thing.
Agreed (except for the part about White demographics leading the recovery. Black entrepreneurs should be just as much a part of the recovery as White ones). But for that to happen, the city needs to purge itself of corruption, and start making it easier for urban pioneer entrepreneurs to buy property and open businesses. The city needs a big sign that says "we're open for business".
I am not big "corruption is why the city declined kind of person". Chicago and New York flourished while being under the influence of mafia and corruption, during part of its history. All major cities have back room dealing, cronyism and other things going on. I truly believe that. However, if no one is trying to blow the whistle by investigating all the dealings going on in the mayors office, city hall and the police department....your not going to find it. It's like relationships. Just because you have not gotten caught cheating.....that does not mean you are not cheating.
Detroit going from a city of 1.9 million people.....to what it is today, was primarily the exodus of the white population, their businesses, taxes and dollars. Detroit's white population declined to about 5% of its peak. In contrast, Detroit's black population is still 70% of its peak. Hence, the abandonment and decay is a result of lost white residents and revenue. That is 80% of Detroit's decline. The city needs to regain a sizable white demographic, PLUS, try to keep its black residents. Whites moving in and black moving out should not be seen as a winning formula, but many people see its current black residents in a negative way. They feel any decent person would have moved away a long time ago. I say Detroit needs to try to retain its black population, despite their condition, plus grow its white population.
What has kept many older cities population buoyant has been immigrants. While places like New York, Chicago, Philadelphia and the like were losing white population, that was being offset by a gain in immigrants. Detroit did not experience a large immigrant influx of people from Mexico, Central and South America, the Caribbean and the like, because they tend to go where the economies are good.
Overall, I am optimistic about Detroit's and Michigan's turnaround. It will take some time but I think both are generally on the right track. I also have a problem with the optics that the election of the first white mayor in 40 some years.......is seen as a good start in ending corruption. The only mayor convicted of corruption, that i know, was Kwame....and it seems that since he was convicted the assumption seems to be that all the black mayors were guilty but never convicted.
As a teacher ITA. I teach in a good district and I can testify that if you put even 4 trouble makers who feed off of each other in the same class learning sharply diminishes. Those who value education try to leave poor school districts so what is left is parents who don't care or who lack the means to do anything. I agree that you'd have to address behavior issues in the classroom to have any impact. Unfortunately, that takes money the schools don't have.
How do you address behavioral issues when the parent(s) couldn't care less and the kid doesn't want to be there anyway?
I am not big "corruption is why the city declined kind of person". Chicago and New York flourished while being under the influence of mafia and corruption, during part of its history. All major cities have back room dealing, cronyism and other things going on. I truly believe that. However, if no one is trying to blow the whistle by investigating all the dealings going on in the mayors office, city hall and the police department....your not going to find it. It's like relationships. Just because you have not gotten caught cheating.....that does not mean you are not cheating.
Detroit going from a city of 1.9 million people.....to what it is today, was primarily the exodus of the white population, their businesses, taxes and dollars. Detroit's white population declined to about 5% of its peak. In contrast, Detroit's black population is still 70% of its peak. Hence, the abandonment and decay is a result of lost white residents and revenue. That is 80% of Detroit's decline. The city needs to regain a sizable white demographic, PLUS, try to keep its black residents. Whites moving in and black moving out should not be seen as a winning formula, but many people see its current black residents in a negative way. They feel any decent person would have moved away a long time ago. I say Detroit needs to try to retain its black population, despite their condition, plus grow its white population.
What has kept many older cities population buoyant has been immigrants. While places like New York, Chicago, Philadelphia and the like were losing white population, that was being offset by a gain in immigrants. Detroit did not experience a large immigrant influx of people from Mexico, Central and South America, the Caribbean and the like, because they tend to go where the economies are good.
Overall, I am optimistic about Detroit's and Michigan's turnaround. It will take some time but I think both are generally on the right track. I also have a problem with the optics that the election of the first white mayor in 40 some years.......is seen as a good start in ending corruption. The only mayor convicted of corruption, that i know, was Kwame....and it seems that since he was convicted the assumption seems to be that all the black mayors were guilty but never convicted.
I certainly hope that you are not referring to my post about the mayor, as I did not mention anything about him being white, nor do I care if he is or not. I care about his ability to make the city a great place to live for everybody. You seem to be reading into something that is not there.
Have you guys ever seen this series of videos done a few years ago about how to save Cleveland? I think there are a lot of ideas here that would also be relevant to Detroit:
Since this video series, the city has made a lot of improvements, and I do think some of the ideas in the videos were implemented, and have made a difference.
Last edited by Cleverfield; 12-27-2015 at 04:30 PM..
I certainly hope that you are not referring to my post about the mayor, as I did not mention anything about him being white, nor do I care if he is or not. I care about his ability to make the city a great place to live for everybody. You seem to be reading into something that is not there.
I am saying that such is the "optics" whether you mention it or not.....its still the visual effect....that corruption has ended with the new mayor....who is white and those since the 70's have been black. I mean....no one knows who is corrupt or not until they are caught guilty of it.
How do you address behavioral issues when the parent(s) couldn't care less and the kid doesn't want to be there anyway?
That is tough but you can by making life miserable as a result of disruptions. I've seen detentions work well when they're run like a boot camp and teachers had the power to just send a student directly to detention. (If you have admins who won't back the teacher you can forget any program working)
When I worked at the charter school I dealt with a combination of large classes and disruptive students daily but I could send them directly to detention where they were required to work silently for first an hour and then a day. I found that getting three or four trouble makers out of the class improved the class and after they ones that went to detention realized they hated having to sit silently they actually started to come in line.
If I were trying to tackle Detroit's problems and I had the money to do it I'd start with small class sizes. Say no more than 18 in a class so that teachers can better address deficiencies and behavior issues (the bigger the class the worse the issues). I'd have unpleasant detention and the teacher would have the right to send a student directly to detention. I'd put enough security guards in the halls that you'd see one no matter which direction you looked in the hallway and I'd put surveillance cameras in the classrooms. Security would escort students to detention or to the bathroom (you'd be surprised how many drug deals go down during class in the bathrooms).
I would vertically align the curriculum and insure that kids don't pass if they don't have the prerequisite knowledge. It becomes a cluster at the high school level when you are teaching subjects like biology, chemistry, algebra and physics to kids who can't read or do simple arithmetic. Remediation programs would need to be available for kids higher in the system but if they stop passing kids who can't read or do math the need should lessen over time. I would have some kind of jobs program through the school to help kids train for and get jobs.
That is tough but you can by making life miserable as a result of disruptions. I've seen detentions work well when they're run like a boot camp and teachers had the power to just send a student directly to detention. (If you have admins who won't back the teacher you can forget any program working)
When I worked at the charter school I dealt with a combination of large classes and disruptive students daily but I could send them directly to detention where they were required to work silently for first an hour and then a day. I found that getting three or four trouble makers out of the class improved the class and after they ones that went to detention realized they hated having to sit silently they actually started to come in line.
If I were trying to tackle Detroit's problems and I had the money to do it I'd start with small class sizes. Say no more than 18 in a class so that teachers can better address deficiencies and behavior issues (the bigger the class the worse the issues). I'd have unpleasant detention and the teacher would have the right to send a student directly to detention. I'd put enough security guards in the halls that you'd see one no matter which direction you looked in the hallway and I'd put surveillance cameras in the classrooms. Security would escort students to detention or to the bathroom (you'd be surprised how many drug deals go down during class in the bathrooms).
I would vertically align the curriculum and insure that kids don't pass if they don't have the prerequisite knowledge. It becomes a cluster at the high school level when you are teaching subjects like biology, chemistry, algebra and physics to kids who can't read or do simple arithmetic. Remediation programs would need to be available for kids higher in the system but if they stop passing kids who can't read or do math the need should lessen over time. I would have some kind of jobs program through the school to help kids train for and get jobs.
WOW, I was TOTALLY WRONG about you - these are really awesome solutions. Do you think that these measures could be implemented in the DPS or only in charter schools? Why could these not be implemented in DPS - opposition by the teacher's union? If they could be implemented in the Detroit Public Schools, do you think there would be hope for that district or is it too far gone?
WOW, I was TOTALLY WRONG about you - these are really awesome solutions. Do you think that these measures could be implemented in the DPS or only in charter schools? Why could these not be implemented in DPS - opposition by the teacher's union? If they could be implemented in the Detroit Public Schools, do you think there would be hope for that district or is it too far gone?
The problem is one of money. You can do anything if you have the cash. Detroit doesn't have the kind of money such a program would take. You'd need half again as many teachers or more due to remediation, security guards, detention teachers, equipment to make lab work meaningful in spite of deficiencies in reading and math as it would take years before the kids hitting high school were up to par once you stopped passing kids who can't read or do math. Detroit is cash strapped but needs drastic measures to turn their schools around.
The only thing the teacher's union would fight would be cameras in the classroom but they'd really be there for the protection of both the teacher and students so they'd go in in the end. All it would take is a principal or guard watching the video and stepping in a few times for kids to get that they are being watched. Teachers unfortunately would fear using the video against them. We all have our off days and if that's what you look at we suck.
My union fights for smaller class sizes, time for working with peers to vertically align the curriculum, for equipment in my classroom, for support when we have issues we need help with, etc, etc, etc... Without the union I'd be dealing with 35 kids in my chemistry classes instead of 24 which is the safe maximum. The union would support most measures that would help Detroit schools as would most teachers. The question is one of cost.
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