why is detroit so dangerous and then all the sudden you go a street over to grosse pointe, and its safe and sound safe? (Southfield: condo, credit)

[Pyewackette]

OMG, that sounds like hell. Knocking Grosse Pointe off my list - assuming pricing in the area didn't already knock it totally off the Rails of Possibility.

Yesterday I sent a link for a property to my son. He pointed out it was in a gated community. AUTOMATIC REJECTION. I don't get gated communities at all and I guaran-dog-tee you that, despite being educated and at least nominally white, I would have very little in common with residents of such a place and most likely would immediately be tagged as the very kind of riff-raff they're trying to keep out.

If not, I would immediately re-evaluate myself and figure out why a bunch of fraidy-cat rich white people think I fit in with them, and eliminate those terrible traits.

Seriously. I have a brother who already thinks I'm a race traitor. I avoid him like the plague. No way would I want to move into a neighborhood full of people just like him, only sneakier. Honestly most folks in those places are nearly as scared of "low class" (eg poor) whites as they are of people of color. Yuck. Just yuck.

Having to show a pass to get into a public park? "Papers, please."

Originally Posted by dr_j_planning

This is about control and the individuals and institutions of Grosse Pointe have the desire, power, influence and resources to strongly control their environment. Grosse Pointe was, and still is, Metropolitan Detroit's "old money" suburb. While many perceive GP as being less exclusive and affluent than it used to be, such perception is more a product of other suburban areas rising in affluence rather than a decline of Grosse Pointe. For example, when my mother's family moved there in 1955, there really weren't many affluent suburban residential communities in Metropolitan Detroit. Suburbs like Novi, Rochester Hills and Troy did not exist. Bloomfield and Birmingham existed, but they were newer and far less established than Grosse Pointe. Brand new construction was unheard of in the farm country of Oakland and Commerce Townships; Northville and Plymouth were small towns in the sticks. GP was THE suburb in the 1950s and exclusively WASP; no diversity. This was also a time when the city of Detroit was overwhelmingly the center for jobs, retail, and entertainment, so Grosse Pointe was close to the action. Northland Mall had just opened and the GM Tech Center in Warren was under construction. Metro Detroit was on the precipice of great suburban expansion and white flight from the city but those dynamics were in nascent stages. Grosse Pointe had many fabulous, expansive estates with large numbers of staff and famous residents, along with a suite of exclusive and private clubs; these characteristics fueled outsider perceptions but the reality is that more than half the homes in Grosse Pointe were tidy, well-built residences you could find in a number of places, including Beverly Hills, Pleasant Ridge, Huntington Woods, East English Village, Birmingham, Sherwood Forest or the University District.

Fast forward to 2017. Grosse Pointe, like many older suburbs, has declined significantly in population due to a sizeable drop in household size (1955 was near the height of the Baby Boom; 3-4 kids per household was typical). Most of the large estates have been demolished, subdivided and rebuilt with high-end tract housing. Nobody keeps large numbers of staff anymore. The population has some diversity, but lack of affordable housing options in GP has really prevented true diversification. Grosse Pointers have watched Detroit's degradation with dismay and quietly vowed such disinvestment will never unravel their community; with their backs to the lake, they have taken a stand. As a result, the city of Detroit has largely eroded around the community of Grosse Pointe, which creates a stark contrast of beautifully maintained executive homes on tree-lined streets separated from blocks peppered with vacant lots, dilapidated housing and pocked shells of former retail strips by Alter Road and Mack Avenue.

While Detroit has declined, GP residents and leaders have invested strongly in homes, parks, business districts, schools and public safety to maintain their desirability. There was no riot in GP in 1967; one phone call from the Ford household to President Johnson ensured tanks rolled down Jefferson Avenue to stand guard at the border. GP leaders have also made some strategic decisions that limit access to non-residents, which effectively exclude many of lower socio-economic status: clubs are private and parks and schools are resident-only. Grosse Pointe education foundations, community foundations and housing foundations have all channeled the generous financial support of local families above and beyond property taxes and state subsidies to lift the community above others to improve aspects of the Grosse Pointe lifestyle. Such practices keep affluent families in and, in many cases, less affluent families out.

Some examples: (1) Parks - the parks are the most beautiful municipal recreation facilities you will ever see, but you'll only see them if you present a valid Park Pass and you'll only obtain a valid Park Pass if you can properly verify your residency status in the community. Enforcement is strict; a staffed gatehouse guards the entrance to each community's lakefront park. Access to the park is even more difficult for GP renters than homeowners (higher pass purchase and replacement costs, fewer guest privileges, etc.) (2) Schools - strict residency requirements apply to Grosse Pointe Public Schools and private investigators still comb the rolls and visit properties to ferret out any students whose guardians do not demonstrate legitimate residency. Grosse Pointe remains closed to Schools of Choice; you must live in the Grosse Pointe District to attend its schools. (3) Housing - many of the rental properties in Grosse Pointe Park were incorporated into the Grosse Pointe Housing Foundation program when they began to deteriorate and experience increased vacancy. Generous support from a few prominent families, particularly the Cotton Family (Meridian Health) supported rehabilitation and subsidized rents to reinvigorate those properties, but those rental subsidies were only awarded to certain individuals in various advanced stages of professional education who met strict academic requirements. The Cotton Family also purchased and demolished or re-purposed a number of businesses in the commercial district along Kercheval Avenue between Nottingham and Alter Roads. Demand for housing in Grosse Pointe Park simultaneously rebounded with the resurgence of downtown Detroit. The result is a much more vibrant community with much-improved housing and retail, but far fewer lower income and racially diverse households. As a result, black student enrollment has experienced a marked decline at schools that serve Grosse Pointe Park (e.g. Defer, Trombly, Maire, Pierce, South) in the past few years.

In summary, Grosse Pointe is old school and they like it that way; this is the bastion of preppies. Families, schools, church, kids, dogs and boats dominate the culture. Education and tradition are extremely important; change not so much. How long your family has lived there is more important than your bank account (which is not a polite topic of conversation, by the way). GP fancies itself Martha's Vineyard or Nantucket. The community treasures its history, its architecture and its prominence along the waterfront. There are no malls here, but several quaint shopping districts primarily along Mack and Kercheval Avenues. It is understated, low-key, timeless and committed to its self-preservation.

[Pyewackette]

Originally Posted by jonnynonos

Unfortunately I agree with a lot of your overall sentiment. (I'm white.) The rank and file "white liberal" generally exists in a state of glaring hypocrisy -- exacerbated by the ease these days of virtue signaling via posting something on social media, often accusing someone else of doing something untoward. But the truth is when the rubber meets the road, you often see what you saw in Harper Woods.

You don't even need to go that far; how many white folks are gobbling up affordable housing in relatively safe Southfield? Let alone inner city Detroit or the South or West sides of Chicago. Why not?! It's practically free!

Of course, fear of plunging housing values, et al, certainly play a role, but that is and never was close to the whole story.

We still have a long way to go (everyone) and part of that is not feeling so great about ourselves for posting a meme denouncing Donald Trump or Confederate statues.

That being said, I would say the majority of white people I know these days do genuinely value and seek diversity. And perhaps it's not racism, but just human nature, to not want to be an extreme minority in a given situation regardless of where or who that is.

I mean you don't see many other people flocking to live in places like Chicago's Chinatown, either, except other Chinese.

Identify the safer areas for me and I'll gladly move into one. I am old and decrepit and not as tough as I once fancied myself to be - but I'm not a coward and I'm not a bigot. I don't think someone is "out to get me" because they are brown. My son is brown. My ex is brown.

Can I afford Chicago's Chinatown? IF so I'd consider moving there, too, LOL!

I am looking for a yard that I can garden in (so sun exposure needed) and enough side yard that you don't end up staring into the neighbor's house every time you glance out the window.

Now going to put "Southfield" in the real estate search engine and see if it recognizes it as valid input ...

[BPtransplant]

Originally Posted by Pyewackette

OMG, that sounds like hell. Knocking Grosse Pointe off my list - assuming pricing in the area didn't already knock it totally off the Rails of Possibility.

Yesterday I sent a link for a property to my son. He pointed out it was in a gated community. AUTOMATIC REJECTION. I don't get gated communities at all and I guaran-dog-tee you that, despite being educated and at least nominally white, I would have very little in common with residents of such a place and most likely would immediately be tagged as the very kind of riff-raff they're trying to keep out.

If not, I would immediately re-evaluate myself and figure out why a bunch of fraidy-cat rich white people think I fit in with them, and eliminate those terrible traits.

Seriously. I have a brother who already thinks I'm a race traitor. I avoid him like the plague. No way would I want to move into a neighborhood full of people just like him, only sneakier. Honestly most folks in those places are nearly as scared of "low class" (eg poor) whites as they are of people of color. Yuck. Just yuck.

Having to show a pass to get into a public park? "Papers, please."

Don't knock it off your list until you visit. We moved here from out of state and we absolutely love it. No, it's not all rich, snobby elites. If it were, there's no way we would be able to afford to live here. Without getting into financials, trust me on that. Yes there are some pretty wealthy people that live here, but aren't there everywhere?
I have found the people here to be extremely friendly and welcoming. As for your people of color comment, both my wife and I are minorities and have not had any issues (Not that we expected to).
Again, the community has been very welcoming.
As with most things, nothing is as bad, or as good as some make them out to be. Just trying to give you an "inside view" of what it's really like here. The reputation given to the people that live here, is not what we have found.

[Pyewackette]

Originally Posted by BPtransplant

Don't knock it off your list until you visit. We moved here from out of state and we absolutely love it. No, it's not all rich, snobby elites. If it were, there's no way we would be able to afford to live here. Without getting into financials, trust me on that. Yes there are some pretty wealthy people that live here, but aren't there everywhere?
I have found the people here to be extremely friendly and welcoming. As for your people of color comment, both my wife and I are minorities and have not had any issues (Not that we expected to).
Again, the community has been very welcoming.
As with most things, nothing is as bad, or as good as some make them out to be. Just trying to give you an "inside view" of what it's really like here. The reputation given to the people that live here, is not what we have found.

No, uh-uh, sorry, I am not moving into an area with Nazi rules like that. No how no way never.

Requiring you to buy a "pass" to get into the public parks alone is enough to tell me that area has absolutely nothing to offer. Seriously. Guarded gates keeping people out of a PUBLIC SPACE. No.

No. Absolutely freakin' not.

And no, "wealthy people" are not everywhere. And it isn't even particularly about rich people (not even the rich people who insist they are really only middle class, which is most of them). It's about human rights and not being jerks. Keeping the riff-raff out with armed guards is jerky. For dog's sake, they differentiate between residents who RENT and residents who OWN, with the former being given fewer rights than the latter, and costing them more. True class discrimination, and apparently all legal. What a terrible comment on the neighborhood! "Won't you be my neighbor? But not if you're a dirty dirty renter!"

This says it all for me:

"The result is a much more vibrant community with much-improved housing and retail, but far fewer lower income and racially diverse households. As a result, black student enrollment has experienced a marked decline at schools that serve Grosse Pointe Park (e.g. Defer, Trombly, Maire, Pierce, South) in the past few years."

My son already gets followed around and stopped for nothing, and he's barely brown. I hate to think what might happen to him if he drove into such a neighborhood to visit me and could not produce a "resident's pass".

"Papers, please!"

NEVER.

EDIT: I just went and looked for properties in Grosse Pointe, for kicks and grins.

The houses cost 2x to 3x the cost of similar properties that I have looked at in other areas, and are generally smaller - some by quite a bit - too boot.

Plus there is the issue of higher property taxes on the higher assessed GP properties, and it turns out EVERY SINGLE HOME that is still (barely) within my capabilities is in an area where crime is as high or higher than other places I've looked at that cost a lot less.

It was a big fat NO anyway. The fact that you get less for more and still have the same crime rates to deal with is just icing on the cake.

[Nattering Heights]

It's an echo chamber. Living in the chamber could be a pleasant life, until the chamber walls break.

[tranquildreamer95]

well people, I'm the OP and I've gotten 74 replies and I'm just now, for the first time, commenting on the thread I started and haven't read any of the replies yet. can't wait to read all the replies for my own sake of entertainment

[BPtransplant]

Originally Posted by Pyewackette

No, uh-uh, sorry, I am not moving into an area with Nazi rules like that. No how no way never.

\

LOL, uh, ok? Just wanted to give you some insight. Enjoy the house hunting.

[zthatzmanz28]

Originally Posted by tranquildreamer95

literally, you go in the grosse pointe park area and be in mansion wonderland full of huge cottage looking houses, then you go over one block into the city and boom, abandoned houses and graffiti. what keeps out the criminals from burning down the houses in grosse pointe park on devils night? what keeps out the crime and violence when it just a little road over? how does this work and happen?

1. Mo Money
2. Mo Resources
3. Mo vigilance
4. Mo home ownership
5. Mo Money

[Geo-Aggie]

...Mo problems.

Wait, no, that's not true. Probably way fewer problems in Grosse Pointe.

I also agree that the whole "residents pass" thing that GP does for access to their parks is insane. The first time I went over to one of their "public" facilities to meet a friend who lives there and had to give a name to get access was so weird to me. It was like going to a country club, except it was a public park.

I also find it painfully annoying when someone is like "Yeah, we bring in 150k a year; we're middle class." No. Someone earning in the 95th percentile is not "middle class". You could sell me on 100k or even 110k being (upper)middle class, but when your income is 3x that of the median household and your monthly income (12.5k) is greater than the annual income of roughly 10% of American households - you're not middle class, rather you're quite wealthy; which is fine - there's nothing wrong with that, but don't act like you're not privileged with a fantastic financial situation, because that's super obnoxious. Sorry, I'm on a tangent here, but despite the abrasive tone of Pyewackette's post, I believe there were a number of reasonable statements made there.

That being said, the restrictive park access and the high demands and upkeep standards the community has for its residents have done well to make sure it stays an elite and desirable location, even as a lot of money has moved into the Bloomfields and Rochesters of the world over the past half century.

[actualize81]

It's about vibrational energy. Two different energies side by side. It's not about race but it is about negative vs positive energy to their varying degrees.