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Old 07-19-2012, 07:16 PM
 
Location: West Virginia
13,927 posts, read 39,302,018 times
Reputation: 10257

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrspink View Post
I have seen some rather harsh comments on here towards the GSD's owner. Retract the claws a bit!

Even the kindest dog who has never shown any agression, and hasn't bitten before can bite. Dogs are very instinctual; it's common sense in my opinion. They are animals. If you research dog breeds, many were bred to guard and show unfailing dedication to their family. No matter how much training a dog as, as someone posted earlier, even the most well trained dog can fall short in an area. I feel like some people tend to forget what many of these dogs were bred to do. That instinct is still there. If a dog feels threatened, which doesn't have to be a physical threat, all of that suppressed instinct from generations prior can show its face, in even the most trained and well behaved dogs.

Now, I am not excusing the dog's actions. It shouldn't have bitten, but the owner recognizes that and has taken immediate steps to correct that behavior. I will agree with others, work with a trainer where YOU are present. The dog (Shep I believe) needs to listen to you.

Now, I also believe dogs are creatures of habit. The OP stated that the lawn workers usually came on a Thursday and were there on Wednesday the day the worker was bitten; again HABIT/ROUTINE. Even if a dog knows someone, if it is not under the usual circumstances and out of the norm, a dog can be thrown off. I know...I was bitten by my best friend's chow. I was in middle school, and had known this dog since early elementary school. I knew she was a biter, but I didn't think about it one day and I reached down to pet her while she was taking a drink of water. Not a normal interaction for the two of us, and as a result I was bitten. It drew blood, but I didn't need stitches. I was in the wrong. I interacted with this dog in a way that I normally would not.

If I were working at people's houses like this gentleman, I would take the time to familiarize myself with dogs. NOT interact if that's not his cup of tea, but understand what triggers a dog (prolonged eye contact, fear, etc.) to be more knowledgable.

Just my thoughts...
The OP/Owner KNEW this dog didnt Like People! So Claws Out!! This is why Certain Breeds get Bad Names!

 
Old 07-20-2012, 07:53 AM
 
Location: Upstate, SC
19 posts, read 52,922 times
Reputation: 32
Well...It's a big world and lots of opinions. I appreciate the good, the bad and the ugly. Each reply gives me a chance to see another scenario and perception, which I appreciate.

Yes...I knew they didn't like the people, but Shep always stayed away. He was the runt of the litter, only 4 lbs and the last male out of 4. Instead of ever getting close to anyone he would always bark and stay 10 feet away. But with these people his hair would stand up. He hasnt ever got close to anyone and was the most timid in the past. When we take him to an outside public diner, he sits or lays in a relaxed position. he hasn't ever shown aggression publicly and off our property. We have a big 18" plastic owl on our porch to keep the birds off our porch, and Shep is scared to death of it. All our other dogs sniff it and walk away.

I wonder if Shep didn't stop when we were calling him, because we were chasing him. Usually we call from a stationary place and he comes.

Had I realized they were on the property on a off day, I would have taken more precaution. They just got started and were on the edge of our property. The fact that they were and they weren't leashed makes me guilty. I know that. I'm not making any excuses.

Through part of the assessment, because German shepherds have different strengths, the K9 trainer said that they uses their dogs to help with the interview process. Their instincts are sharper then most people. He said that if one of their dogs doesn't like a person their interviewing, they usually follow up with a background check. And usually the dog is right. He is suggesting bite training for Shep. Of coarse that really intimidates me, but we are also being (structurely) trained through this processes. This board and train process allows us an hour of training for every 4 days they board and train. So far all of the training is manageable and without threat and easy to contain. Recall training is high on everyone's priority list.

We have always free fed all our dogs, and seemed just fine . Dry food only. But food and water always assessable. Thru this training program we have started to feed them 1 times a day...only 3 cups each. Each have their own bowl and space. Is this what you do? I give them about 15 min to each and after that I pick up their bowl. On bite day, none of my dogs were hungry.

I'm curious about any life habits you have with your dog. We have a hectic life . I work 3-12 hour days, and enrolled my dogs in this board and train program so they wouldn't be 'abandoned' and had projects to work on while I worked. I can go to visit them on lunch breaks if my time permits. The dogs absolutely love it and travel well. We commute an hour each way, but it's close to my place of employment.

I love everyone's honesty here. I'm learning a lot and sharing a lot....you all have become my evening dinner topic.
Thank you.
 
Old 07-20-2012, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Santa Barbara CA
5,094 posts, read 12,590,447 times
Reputation: 10205
I have a question your dogs board at the board and train 4 days a week? I know you get to work with them in the training there but is it all done on their property or do they take the dogs off the property to work on training? I ask because of Habituation, If you only train in one place and not out about in different locations dogs can become habituated and behave perfect in that one place but when taken someplace else old behaviors resurface. That is why so many of the board and train places do all the training on their property and offer a money back guarantee as you get the dog home it starts having issues again you call they say bring it back and you do and they will set up the situation there and let you control the dog and wow it behaves perfectly and they give you the old " I don't see a problem".

I learned this from the Vet that had a PHD in behavior about 15-16 yrs ago when he helped me with Jazz's fear aggression issues, and we discussed a lot of different training methods. Working with him was a lot different then any dog trainer I had ever met and I learned a lot.

I have never free fed a dog as having a set time to eat tends to establish set elimination times and also helps prevent a dog from eating too much( as long as you are not feeding it too much!)

With my previous dogs who were of herding breeds I did use the nothing in life is free method. If they got something they had to work for it. Jazz wanted me to throw her ball or get a treat she had to do something first . I used both obedience commands and tricks and it did pay off as it also gave her a lot of mental stimulation which the smart herding dogs need as much as the physical exercise. I would take her to the park to play fetch and soon have a crowd watching us as people were amazed as I would do things ike put her in a down stay , throw the ball make her wait until I realeased her ( her release word was "free" because unlike "OK" you do not tend to use it often ). I would let her get half way to the ball and drop her with with a down maybe make her roll over before sending her on towards the ball sometimes I would drop her again just feet from the ball. It changed with each toss and we both had a blast and she would come home exhausted from being challenged like that

I too work 3 12hr shifts a week ( but I do nights) and many people will tell me you can not raise puppies and work full time but I have managed to raise Jazz and Chaos from small pups ( 12+ 13 wks) and Dazzle and Dash from 8 months and 1 yr. Had to house train them and never had more then an accident or two from any of them as I have a dog door and house training was a breeze.But because of those long shifts and the breeds I like I learned fast that mental stimulation added to play time or to walks was going to keep them satisfied and tired so they would behave when I do work.

The only one that got away with not having the nothing in life is free was Phoenix she was a deaf vision limited homozygous merle Border collie that I got when she was 2 and her sweet nature and grin got her a lot of treats and petting that she did not work for but when I did make her work she would lite up and that grin just stayed on her face.Training her was a whole new game for me but as I found out it was very possible and she loved learning.

I also do think often people are just afraid of GSD's as a friend is a puppy raiser for guide dogs for the blind she usually has labs or Goldens and only did one GSD and when it was a puppy and I was visiting we took it into Oakland on BART and despite the train being full no one would sit by us because she was a GSD! ( and she was a puppy of about 40lbs at the time and had her guide dog in training jacket on) On the sidewalks of Oakland people would skirt far around us! When I have been with her with the other pups we always had a hard time keeping people away from them!
 
Old 07-20-2012, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,564 posts, read 12,822,450 times
Reputation: 9400
CONTAIN the dog
 
Old 07-20-2012, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,564 posts, read 12,822,450 times
Reputation: 9400
Sounds like you have a good dog- bright and protective- I did not read your whole opening statement- but I suggest you make sure that it does not happen again- or they will come for the dog and destroy it...or worse- sue you into poverty...This is a watch dog- and with a watch dog - you had better watch him as he is watching over you- Don't take it for granted that he can take care of himself..Like a seeing eye dog- It is a two way street and a contract between animal and master-He takes care of you- you take care of him- He like a child needs supervision- unlike a child- He is a hunter and meat eater- who has teeth for ripping...it's like a child running about with a sharp knife..
 
Old 07-20-2012, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Upstate, SC
19 posts, read 52,922 times
Reputation: 32
I have a question your dogs board at the board and train 4 days a week? I know you get to work with them in the training there but is it all done on their property or do they take the dogs off the property to work on training? I ask because of Habituation, If you only train in one place and not out about in different locations dogs can become habituated and behave perfect in that one place but when taken someplace else old behaviors resurface. That is why so many of the board and train places do all the training on their property and offer a money back guarantee as you get the dog home it starts having issues again you call they say bring it back and you do and they will set up the situation there and let you control the dog and wow it behaves perfectly and they give you the old " I don't see a problem".
~~~~~~~~~~~

....I'm still learning to use this post.
Actually Shep is taken off the property and goes on field trips with the camp they go to. They also learn to interact w other dogs, with supervision. Our other dogs get the training as well. I as well take my dogs to places to allow them to have exposure outside the property. Home Depot, Lowes, HobbyLobby, Petco and PetSmart allow dogs on leashes and we take them for occasional 'field trips'. No problem with aggression. People want to pet but we ask them not to b/c they're in training. We were also told not to ever let anyone ever give the treats to them...Makes sense. They behave very well off the property. They avoid other people and aren't interested in other animals as well. Even if we talk to other people, they sit quietly and don't feel or act threatened.

Our dogs have been crate trained since we've had them. Our trainer stated that when they bark at a squirrel or chayote they see outside, once the squirrel or chayote is out of site, the GSD's have the sense that they made it go away. Now all blinds are closed, and they are not allowed to see the outside world, unless they're with us on a leash. I'm still trying to understand the psychi of a GSD. I'm use to having a dog love on me and sleep with us, and rough play without worrying about them running off to attack. It's new and all of us are learning.

I remember the first time taking them to a dog park at 4 months....they protected us and wanted nothing to do with other dogs. I was shocked, concerned and felt like I had a dogs from The Omen. That was weird to me and then learned they aren't 'social dogs' but love to work for their owner and protect their family.
 
Old 07-20-2012, 10:54 AM
 
414 posts, read 1,010,064 times
Reputation: 303
Default Agree and Disagree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie1 View Post
The OP/Owner KNEW this dog didnt Like People! So Claws Out!! This is why Certain Breeds get Bad Names!
The OP also (at least from what I gathered) didn't know the lawn workers would be there that day. As they are usually there THURSDAY. I leash my dog to and from the car because if he saw someone, he would run up to them and smother them with kisses. But in this case, if the dog usually ignores people, and the owner didn't KNOW people were going to be there, then performing a normal routine, like walking out to the car without a leash on their property, to me doesn't warrant some of the rather mean comments I have seen.

Everybody always has an opinon on how someone else should handle their dog. If someone is on your property when they usually aren't, a dog is not accustomed to that. In addition, just because a dog doesn't like people doesn't mean the dog is a biter. I've seen many dogs who are family oriented but don't like other people. It doesn't mean they are aggresive, it just means they prefer a small, tight-knit group of people.

I 100% agree that if the owner/OP knows the dog is not a "people lover" then he should be leashed. But I would argue these circumstances weren't normal. I am also not saying that it is the lawn worker's fault. But I am a firm believer in the idea that if you are working a job where you know dogs will be around, then you should 1) familiarize yourself with dogs and understand what triggers them and 2) let the property owner know if you are going to be working at their place on a day different than normal.
 
Old 07-20-2012, 11:05 AM
 
2,873 posts, read 5,852,616 times
Reputation: 4342
I'm really curious about this trainer. The dogs have been going there since puppyhood? Shep is now three and still not trained on the basics fully?

I have to wonder if you're not caught in a situation where the trainer is taking advantage of you. If your dogs are never trained, you'll always be going to the trainer...and they'll likely keep ungrading the level of training they say the dogs need. It seems like an upselling scam. It also seems like they could be playing on your worries about having GSDs. Yes, all breeds have different strengths and concerns, but GSDs are not so very different to the point where it should take so long to train them on the basics. They're dogs, not unicorns. At 3 years, you should have a solid recall when faced with distractions, and should be able to hush the dogs without darkening your home. It sounds like the trainer is training you to be dependent on them.

These are just my thoughts, of course, but I would sit down and think about this trainer. Are they always finding new things to work? Things that seem like the dogs should have learned as puppies? Have they ever given you an end point for training and what should be accomplished at that stage? Are they focused on how different GSDs are instead of your individual dogs' strengths and weaknesses?

I understand wanting to give the dogs something to do during the day, but there are agility classes and such...things beyond the basics.
 
Old 07-20-2012, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Kansas
25,962 posts, read 22,126,936 times
Reputation: 26702
My first thought was that the OP was more concerned about possible litigation than anything else including the training of a possible fear-biter and the well-being of a worker that was hired and it sounds like there is more than one but this one just happens to be the first one that was bitten. I am wondering if the worker is an illegal because it sounds like it and wonder if that worker has a tetanus shot because this could become infected and require a hospital emergency. "Wee bite of blood" is still drawing blood. I, too, felt that the OP was blaming the worker which is obviously not the case. What if it had been a small child? Is this dog always securely confined? I love dogs but have no use for people who have no compassion for others which I think is the case here. The reason we have insurance is for instances like this. My bet is the dog bites again. OP should be sure that the GS is covered under her homeowner's insurance policy and maybe get additional liability coverage. The dog was not defending the property. The dog could have killed the man! Of course, it would have been the fault of the man?
 
Old 07-20-2012, 01:46 PM
 
Location: West Virginia
13,927 posts, read 39,302,018 times
Reputation: 10257
Doent matter the guy came on a different day! This dog has a History of Not liking people & HIGH potental for FEAR Bitting... as proven CASE CLOSED! What IF this been a child or another adult walking on the property! Cripe! BTW OP YOU have A bad trainner! Nothing wrong with your dog recieving traets & pats from strangers! Thats how dogs get to know people & behave! I sat outside the Mall a many of time with dog treats! People in my apt complex are still helping me with LadyBug...she only 7.5# But she still a bit scared of different people! Last thing I need is for her to bit some one! Just last week as I was going out with the dogs a friend just walked up & raised his hands to knock! Scared all 3 of us!!! IF my dogs were not under control...LadyBug in my arms Katie [40# corgi] at Heal. Could have been a Major problem! With dogs that are Fear Bitters YOU Have to Expect the Unexpected! In this case YOUR dog NEEDS to be MUZZLED! Before Any door gets opened! YOU need a NEW TRainer!
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