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These same arguments are used to defend meat eating in humans, which we know is not a necessary thing.
You're saying dogs physiology and canis classification precludes them from needing a meat based protein diet. What same argument is paralleled in humans pray tell? We come from two distinct evolutionary branches- so I'd love to hear this 'logical' thought process.
Your 'supposition' really shows you are trying to use your opinion of your dietary (and morality) choices on a species that quite frankly doesn't really care what you think or how you feel. Given the opportunity it's going to eat meat- and lot's of it. That's what it was designed to do, and that's what they need.
You're saying dogs physiology and canis classification precludes them from needing a meat based protein diet.
I didn't say anything about how a canis classification relates to eating meat. You brought up the canis classification, not me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Threerun
What same argument is paralleled in humans pray tell? We come from two distinct evolutionary branches- so I'd love to hear this 'logical' thought process.
The parallel argument is that dentition is useful in determining what a species should eat. I never implied that humans and dogs have a shared evolutionary history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Threerun
Your 'supposition' really shows you are trying to use your opinion of your dietary (and morality) choices on a species that quite frankly doesn't really care what you think or how you feel. Given the opportunity it's going to eat meat- and lot's of it. That's what it was designed to do, and that's what they need.
Dogs weren't "designed" to eat meat any more than humans were. In the wild, humans also eat meat. However, we know that humans can thrive on a meatless diet. Considering cases such as Bramble, the vegan dog who used to hold the record for oldest dog in the world, we have some evidence that dogs can as well.
Only two arguments have been given here for why dogs must have meat:
1. Look at their teeth! As I stated, this isn't particularly useful. Humans also have teeth that would indicate that we should eat meat, but we know that humans can thrive without meat. It's easy to think of an explanation for why humans and dogs both have "meat teeth" but can thrive without meat: meat is the most common protein source found in nature! However, given our modern agriculture, it's now not our only source. Both species need protein, but that protein need not be meat-based.
2. Dogs eat meat in the wild. Yes, and so did man before the most recent decades. Again, this is easily explainable because meat is the most common source of protein in the wild. That doesn't mean there is something in meat that is vital to a dog (or a human's) nutrition.
Of course humans can live on a meatless diet; we have flat molars, which are designed for chewing and grinding plants. Dogs do not. Their dentition is a product of their evolutionary diet, which consists of meat, bone and offal. How would a dog break down plant matter in the wild, to make the cellulose digestible? They can't. Contrary to your claim of the dentition not being "particularly useful", the teeth of a dog indeed tell us all we need to know about what they have evolved to eat.
And sure, that one single example of a "vegan" dog that you keep referring to might display the possibility of a successful meatless diet...but you could probably also find one or two humans that thrive on cigarettes, booze and McDonald's, but that doesn't mean its ideal or even appropriate. Being *alive* doesn't always mean *thriving*.
dogs are CARNIVORES (their shortend digestive tract, more acidic Stomach PH, and dental structure all indicate they are designed to eat MEAT, they do not have teeth degned for grinding (no grains) nor o they have the digestive enzymes capable of breaking down cellulose (the cell walls of plant matter)
dogs are not OBLIGATE carnivores like cats are...
BUT that doesn't make them "not carnivores"
there are actually 4 dietary clasifications
herbivore (dietary matter of plant mater only) these animals have large flat teeth in the back designed for grinding, and sharp chisel teeth in front for "nipping" and grazing.
they have much longer digestive tracts (many have multi chambered stomachs and/or rumens also) and typically a more alkaline stomach ph better designed for the digestion of the tough cellular walls of plant matter
Omnivore (dietary matter of meat and plant matter) these aimals (including humans) have 2 types of teeth, elongated eye teeth for tearing in the front and sies and flat teeth in the back for grinding, these creatures have a medum length digestive tracts with a milkdly acidic stomach ph designed for the digestion of both plant and animal based matters. omnivores typically do not sigest thick celled plant matter well (ie Corn and carrot)
Carnivore (dietary matter primarily of meat) MOST carnivores are also dual based scavengers.
thee guys have sharp ointed teeth all round, a much more acidic tomach ph and Short digestive tracts...
their boeis are designed to process ANIMAL PROTEIN however they can also digest the already partially digested green matter in the intestine and can process plant matter with THIN cell walls (ie berries)
carnvires can survive (though will not thrive) on a scavenger based diet due to evolutionary adaptations as surivors...this hwoever does not mean that a PLANT BASED diet is healthy, nor what their system was designed for...(we can eat candy...doesn't mean we should...same for dogs and grains or dogs and pure vegatable matter
Obligate carnivores, these guys (cats primarily as well as most of the weasel family along with a few others) cannot gain any dietary benefit form plant matter, their systems arnt designed to process any of it (not even as scavengers)
these guys also tend to be sensitive to taurine deficiency...
DOGS ARE NOT OMNIVORES, they are "opportunistic carnivores" and CANNOT digest plant matter unless its been first highly processed! (cooked, blended, mushed, partially pre-digested matter in the intestine, ect.) and cannot digest grain at all.
Of course humans can live on a meatless diet; we have flat molars, which are designed for chewing and grinding plants. Dogs do not. Their dentition is a product of their evolutionary diet, which consists of meat, bone and offal. How would a dog break down plant matter in the wild, to make the cellulose digestible? They can't. Contrary to your claim of the dentition not being "particularly useful", the teeth of a dog indeed tell us all we need to know about what they have evolved to eat.
And sure, that one single example of a "vegan" dog that you keep referring to might display the possibility of a successful meatless diet...but you could probably also find one or two humans that thrive on cigarettes, booze and McDonald's, but that doesn't mean its ideal or even appropriate. Being *alive* doesn't always mean *thriving*.
1. Humans can't digest cellulose, either. That is an irrelevant point. Digesting cellulose and eating plants are two different things.
2. Looking at dentition is armchair speculation, nothing more. The reason is that the food sources found in nature are extremely limited compared to the food sources found in modern civilization. Dogs need protein, which is why their teeth are designed to eat meat. In modern times, protein can come from a plethora of sources.
3. It is a biological fact that dogs can break down plant matter, and most commercial dog foods contain plant matter.
4. Very few dogs are vegan dogs, and this dog set the record for being the oldest dog in the world. That is hardly comparable to a person who lived to be quite old on tobacco and McDonald's. We have scientific evidence -- actual scientific studies -- that tobacco and McDonald's are bad for a person. We don't have scientific evidence that a meatless diet is bad for a dog. Also, it is quite doubtful that an organism that isn't "thriving" would live longer than any other organism of its species ever has.
Here is a quote from yet another vet who endorses a vegetarian dog diet:
It is true that dogs belong to the order Carnivora, but they are actually omnivores. The canine body has the ability to transform certain amino acids, the building blocks or protein, into others, meaning that dogs can get all the amino acids they need while avoiding meat.
It turns out that there has actually been a study done on vegetarian dogs -- sled racing dogs, no less. It was published in the British Journal of Nutrition in 2009 and tracked racing Huskies over a ten-week sled racing season. From the synopsis:
Their results, published earlier this year in the British Journal of Nutrition (Vol 102, pp 1318-1323) add to the evidence that dogs fed an exclusively vegetarian diet can be just as healthy and happy as their meat-eating relatives.
Dr Wendy Brown, the canine nutritionist from the University of New England who led the husky trial, is confident that dogs can thrive on a meat-free diet.
dogs are CARNIVORES (their shortend digestive tract, more acidic Stomach PH, and dental structure all indicate they are designed to eat MEAT, they do not have teeth degned for grinding (no grains) nor o they have the digestive enzymes capable of breaking down cellulose (the cell walls of plant matter)
dogs are not OBLIGATE carnivores like cats are...
BUT that doesn't make them "not carnivores"
there are actually 4 dietary clasifications
herbivore (dietary matter of plant mater only) these animals have large flat teeth in the back designed for grinding, and sharp chisel teeth in front for "nipping" and grazing.
they have much longer digestive tracts (many have multi chambered stomachs and/or rumens also) and typically a more alkaline stomach ph better designed for the digestion of the tough cellular walls of plant matter
Omnivore (dietary matter of meat and plant matter) these aimals (including humans) have 2 types of teeth, elongated eye teeth for tearing in the front and sies and flat teeth in the back for grinding, these creatures have a medum length digestive tracts with a milkdly acidic stomach ph designed for the digestion of both plant and animal based matters. omnivores typically do not sigest thick celled plant matter well (ie Corn and carrot)
Carnivore (dietary matter primarily of meat) MOST carnivores are also dual based scavengers.
thee guys have sharp ointed teeth all round, a much more acidic tomach ph and Short digestive tracts...
their boeis are designed to process ANIMAL PROTEIN however they can also digest the already partially digested green matter in the intestine and can process plant matter with THIN cell walls (ie berries)
carnvires can survive (though will not thrive) on a scavenger based diet due to evolutionary adaptations as surivors...this hwoever does not mean that a PLANT BASED diet is healthy, nor what their system was designed for...(we can eat candy...doesn't mean we should...same for dogs and grains or dogs and pure vegatable matter
Obligate carnivores, these guys (cats primarily as well as most of the weasel family along with a few others) cannot gain any dietary benefit form plant matter, their systems arnt designed to process any of it (not even as scavengers)
these guys also tend to be sensitive to taurine deficiency...
DOGS ARE NOT OMNIVORES, they are "opportunistic carnivores" and CANNOT digest plant matter unless its been first highly processed! (cooked, blended, mushed, partially pre-digested matter in the intestine, ect.) and cannot digest grain at all.
Dr. Wendy Brown, the canine nutritionist cited in the study above, disagrees. Here's what she says at that link:
“As dogs belong to the order Carnivora, it’s often assumed that they are exclusively carnivorous,” Dr Brown said, “but in fact they are omnivores, belonging to the same superfamily within the Carnivora as the bamboo-eating giant panda and the omnivorous bear.”
the plant protein in dog food is COOKED, BLENDED, GROUND and essentially "PREDIGESTED" all the thigns a dogs body CANNOT do on its own to make the nutrients acessable....
Without HUMAN INTERVENTION to "pre-digest" that matter dogs CANNOT acess the nutrients in vegatables...
you try and feed a dog a diet made out of vegatables out of your garden, and the dog will eventually starve to death.
Soy is also a HUGE allergen in dogs (a primary protein source in vegitatrian and vegan diets) as is corn...
so YES a dog can survive on a vegan PREMADE diet...one made by a dog food manufacturer, precooked and gorund and blended and muti-vits and amino accids and essential fatty acids added in...
that doesn't mean they can survive on Vegatables...
if the end came and there was no more pre-made dog food, those "vegan dogs" would all eventually die without acess to meat...
just because we can FORCE a creature to survive some way with all our technological "advances" and vitamin powers and man made dietary additions...
doesn't change that dog are CARNIVORES....
trying to make them anything other is a dangerous disservice and those investing in the idea are simply lining the pockets of commercial dog food manufacturers...
ive seen the damage vegan diets have done to dogs (and cats) and id NEVER force that on something I cared about...
seeing the results of soy and corn allergies are bad enough...
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