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Do you e-collar your CH and GSPs for hunt training too? If so they are much more highly trained to respond to the e-collar than a companion dog contained by an underground fence.
My 2 GSP's are e-collar trained for hunting, but my other 5 dogs were not hunt collar trained.
My 2 GSP's were trained on my invisible fence prior to any training with the hunting e-collar.
What a stunning picture of Schnitzel out in the field pointing !
Cody has a lot of potential and we are thinking of doing agility training with him to put him to "work" and the fun of training such an intelligent and willing buddy. I think that's a good idea to contact a sporting dogs group for possible training sessions as they would really have the expertise for his type.
Training for him is FUN -- he loves the challenges, and comes up with his own creative versions sometimes.
Did you ever use a remote collar on any of your sport dogs to teach them being off leash while hunting?
We have one (e-collar mini educator) that the trainer sold us, and he seemed to get it after only two times, but we stopped using it while he gets used to the fence so we don't confuse him.
We have a large farm and would like him to be able to go down to the creek and pond area off leash eventually. This e-collar is waterproof so they can swim with it on.
Another important thing to remember about pointers is that they instinctively want to be your partner. Take him for an off leash walk in a remote area (refrain from using the sport e-collar). Let the dog go in front of you doing whatever he does. Notice if he occasionally 'checks in' and turns to look at YOU. If he does- let him get pretty far, and then just stop and turn around and slowly walk the other way. I'll bet you he'll turn and run right by you and in front of you again.
Do it again and use a whistle when you turn and walk the other way. Blow it once loudly. He should turn and and come to you. Now praise and give a treat! Do it again with the one whistle blow, praise, treat repeat. You have now started him on the recall command and no e-collar required! Both my GSP's picked this up immediately. I can walk them off leash and recall them at anytime I want to.
(If you are uncomfortable about initially letting him off leash you will need a VERY long check cord. Let him run but you need to turn the opposite direction before the line goes taught, then wait to see if he boogies back to you.)
However we do use a sport collar for hunt training, but I think you will find a huge difference on how the collars are used with the type of training you are doing. We don't use the collars to 'stop' some wrong behavior, we use the collars to reinforce what we want them to do right.
In other words if I am teaching the dog to turn left on a hand signal, I use the e-collar with the check cord and a whistle.
1. Set the e-collar to the setting BELOW what get's their attention
2. Let the dog meander about on the check cord.
3. Blow the whistle twice loudly- the dog will look at you.
4. Point your arm right, run right, give a constant correction UNTIL the dog starts running right (in the direction you want him to go).
Praise- "Good Boy!"
Repeat and go the opposite way.
It took about 1 hour in 4-5 15 minute sessions over a few days and the dogs 'got it'. You've now taught them to release whatever they are doing and change direction- all based on your whistle and hand/body motion.
Spring time is when I start to reinforce all this with my dogs- I start ALL OVER again just to get them tuned up for the fall. It's a lot of fun, and good exercise for all.
What a stunning picture of Schnitzel out in the field pointing !
He's not pointing in that picture- he was actively scenting the field and coursing back and forth.
This is a point-
Notice the rear leg sticking up, not the front. It took me an entire week to finally figure out what he was doing. In all cases where he lifted his rear leg, the bird was CLOSE- like nose to bird beak. The second shot he literally had his nose on a pheasant in the bushes! When he scents them 10-20yds or greater- the body and front leg goes into point.
The only thing i can figure is that Schnitzel doesn't want to startle the bird by moving his front leg, so he lifts that rear one.. Smart dog!
Another thing we train is how to 'honor' another dog working the field. If the dog sees another dog on point, they need to stop and recognize the direction of the other dogs point.
If the hunter get's the bird up in the air and shoots it, both dogs will now mark the bird where it lands. Helps to retrieve AND makes a really well behaved cooperative dog. It's rude to have your dog 'bust in' on another dog that has pointed a bird. You can't let their competitive nature overrule hunt cooperation.
Gorgeous pictures! I especially like how you train to "honor" the other dog on point.
Thanks for all the great ideas and advice.
My concern about your first idea with off leash training is that we've only had Cody for a month. And he hadn't had any
Training before, so when he got lose, he ran like crazy after our neighbor's horses, and we did not exist even though we'd been working very successfully with good come/recall on leash when he's not distracted by a scent or chase chance. That's why
the trainer wanted him e- collar trained. I think it might be too soon to try him off leash.
So, since you've had experience with both an ecollar and invisible fencing, how long after he is trained for the fence should we begin again with the e-collar training? We don't want to confuse him with all the zapping lessons, but are excited to start again with the ecollar training and like your advice on how you,use it. He was very responsive to it.
We have noticed his pack mentality as you noted. He's not hyper or nervously Velcro, but really wants to be with us and included in everything we do. He gets pretty bummed when he doesn't get to come with us. It would be better if he had another dog around as he loves playing with and is a very kind and generous with the dogs at the dog park.
Tomorrow will be his first day free in the fenced area. We are turning his collar up to four before he's off leash. We did what you suggested with extra challenging him at the fence this morning, and in his excited state he stood in the zap zone getting zapped for a few seconds before returning. Our leash was too long so we didn't get him yanked back in time, but also realized he needs a higher zap than two if he can tolerate to stand in it okay. This afternoon we got a better response pulling him back and correction.
Wish us luck tomorrow!
On pointing:
Cody naturally points only with his left front leg up, but his tail doesn't go out straight like your dog in the picture.
Is that something they learn when active in hunting? Or do some pointers just point more aggressively?
Are their tails docked some?
Cody still has a longer tail, so I doubt he was ever bred for a hunting future.
Loved how your pointer knew to raise his back leg so as not to scare the bird.
I've never tried an invisible fence and I know they work well for some people but if a dog has a high pain tolerance or a very strong prey drive they may blow right past the perimeter and the shock. They don't work for all dogs. They also don't stop strays or wildlife from getting in and possibly injuring a dog.
The up-turned tail is all style points, lol. I work with him to point nice- noise straight, tail up and eyes focused.
If it were me- I would hold off on the e-fence and work with the dog on his recall and learning to be cooperative first. He'll come around, he's a pointer.
I'll tell you why- if you can whistle train your dog to recall first... Let's say he DOES get out of your yard. Do you want him to ignore you or understand he's being recalled?
I'm telling you- my dogs recall on no more than the second call. All I have to do is whistle and say LOUDLY "HERE HERE!!!". I want total field control of my dogs first, then train them to the yard. It's a tough way to do it, it is work, but in the end I think it is much, much better.
I've never tried an invisible fence and I know they work well for some people but if a dog has a high pain tolerance or a very strong prey drive they may blow right past the perimeter and the shock. They don't work for all dogs. They also don't stop strays or wildlife from getting in and possibly injuring a dog.
Hopefully it will work for you. ☺
Pretty GSPs. Thanks for sharing the pictures.
Thanks, but again I've owned super high prey drive dogs and hunting dogs. The e-fence does work very well. Most instances I've encountered where they don't work (like my neighbor) is if the owner/handler doesn't work with the dog well enough. Seriously. It takes work to train a dog to respect that boundary.
And no offense but we have bears, mountain lions and coyotes here. If a predator wants to get in- it will, fence or not. I'm also not concerned too much with other dogs. Most dogs don't want to pick a fight, especially not on someone else's turf. That's not generally how they roll.
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