Legion is losing his family jewels. (how much, labradors, biting, vets)

[Legion777]

Originally Posted by hiero2

Legion, I actually came back to apologize for one section of the first response. For some reason my brain did not connect with the "mobility cart" once I had read the section about people giving you a hard time about a service dog - it just didn't process. But that is the part I have no experience with anyway, except as understanding some things about status signaling as communication between people.

Anyway, another thought did occur to me, and it is along the lines of catgirl's post. Let's just regard those posts as a miscommunication between the two of you for now. I just assumed you had a reason you picked this particular pup, which you did. And, from what you've said, I think there is an excellent chance for getting more advanced training achieved with Legion by understanding what is going on in his mind better - from understanding what he is communicating.

And you are going to give that a try, so great! But there is a chance Legion isn't suited to the task, and you may need to go back to the task of seeking another pup. But that's down the road, we can worry about that later, no need to worry about it now!

BTW, in a different vein, "Pukka's Promise", by Ted Kerasote, has a section with a different viewpoint on our current trend of universal spay/neuter. (Spoiler, he's mostly against s/n.) I grew up dealing with intact dogs, and spay/neutered dogs were the exception, not the rule then. I'm getting off-topic. So just a mention of "Pukka's Promise" as some more interesting reading, and I'm outta here.

Looking forward to reading a progress report on Legion sometime in 2018!

You've got nothing to apologise for Hiero (but thanks) But you have confused me for the member who's been harassed for having a service dog, lol.
Anyone who insults anyone with a service dog is usually a coward. I'm a big guy who I've been told more than once looks like 'biker Jesus', lol.
Docking tails is now illegal here (the screeching vocal minority snowflakes win again) so the breeders gave me a vet report that verifies that he was born a bob-tail, that they advised me to keep on me at ALL times because they assured me that I would be confronted. Pfft to that. Not a single person has even passed comment. People like that wouldn't dare.

Yeah, the miscommunication is due to not explaining the service dog situation sufficiently, which I'll give in my reply to Catgirl.

Legions motivations, & what I suspect is the cause of half his issues, is dictated by his PICA.
Although he is getting better, he's easily distracted by scents & objects (It's why I started using a harness to save his throat from the choker)
He's not only a drooler, he actually salivates when hoovering a particularly interesting smell (Yes, there's a difference between drooling & salivating. Drool is thick & 'hangs'. Saliva drips like a tap) He can be so absorbed that it's like he's totally oblivious to his surroundings.
On walks he regularly wrenched my arm by stopping to investigate a scent - From trotting at 10kph to a dead stop.
Going on the same route everyday helps. When our regular route gets flooded, I'm forced to take a different route where Legion becomes easily distracted again. By the 3rd day on the different route, he's reasonably good.
Not sure of his instinct drives. He does seem to be protective & displays the 'wait & see' attitude that's typical of Rottis. He checks out men he doesn't know & wont take his eyes of them if they're within 30 feet.
I'm looking forward to seeing what I may learn about identifying his instinct drive from the book.

What makes him obnoxious? From what I can tell it's because he wants to be the boss. People laughed when I said that he was displaying dominant behaviour at 9wo. Time has proved me correct.
He seems to resent being given commands & often has to 'think about it' while I stare at him. He'll usually obey after making me wait.
The hardest to teach was 'drop' (lay down). He'd shimmy, hop & squirm while vocalising his resentment. Even to this day. he resents being told to drop.
He has the habit of lying down in doorways, like between the dining room & loungeroom where I often move between the two. Half the time he doesn't even lift his head when I say 'move'. He just lays there. I don't believe in repeating commands. When he ignores me I'l clear my throat, if that doesn't work I'll raise my voice, after giving him time to think, & say 'What didd I tell you to do?' then he'll move. He's not deaf or stupid, just ignorant, lol.

You're dead right about exercise. Especially when he was younger, I'll take him for an afternoon or evening walk just to wear him out to expend excess energy (Keeping in mind I can't have him chase a ball in the yard due to his Pica)
Although I can walk short distances just fine (many people are surprised when they hear I'm an amputee) I can't go far due to my compromised vascular system.
Using a mobility scooter to exercise Legion has worked out really well. Rather than a sedentary walk, he trots the entire 35-40 mins. Because Rottis can be prone to overheating, I let him dictate the pace which depends on the weather. The warmer it is, the slower he trots.

Legion is very food focused. Taking into account his willful nature, I'm pleasantly surprised that although he'll sniff food on a bench, or in the bin, he doesn't help himself.
He loves ripping up paper & cardboard in particular, but again, although he'll show interest in tissues or paper towel sitting on a table, he'll leave it be.
I don't trust to leave him free reign of the house when I'm out, so I block off the hallway. He could easily push past the obstacles but he doesn't try, being content to wait for me at the front door.
It's things like this that give me hope that he will improve with maturity.

Re-homing is out of the question. I can't imagine anyone would take on a large dog with Pica & take all the precautions to keep him safe. Had I not built the enclosure & take him to toilet on a lead, he would've had an intestinal blockage by now for sure. At 3mo he vomited a half cups worth of gravel & even larger piles of bark, grass or sticks.
Besides, I don't have another $2k to buy another dog. (I've given the wrong impression that I need a service dog. I'll explain in my response to Catgirl)

Yeah I've got a book on Rottis that includes their history. It explains why they're surprisingly athletic for a large dog. They're the only large breed, that I'm aware, that will instinctively stand on their hind legs to look over fences or other obstacles.
Cattle dogs were quite popular when I was a kid. Being a working dog, if they don't have a job they'll find one. The 'Blue Heelers' that were locked up in a yard all day could be quite nasty & we were terrified of them. Many of them had the nasty habit of biting peoples achilles tendons as if we were cattle.

Thanks for your comments & advice, I do appreciate it.

[Legion777]

Originally Posted by JrzDefector

Herding dogs, ime, go through fear periods more frequently than other dogs. So my border collie would literally freak out at random stuff sometimes and it had no rhyme or reason. By 2 she settled down. Except for an inexplicable temporary fear of ice cream trucks that made for some interesting situations for a couple years, she was a total rock.

I like the idea of finding another trainer simply because another perspective is a good idea when you are training a dog for a specific purpose. My friend found a trainer who has experience with service dogs and is advising her on how to train hers. And maybe a trainer that is more intuitive and focused on positive reinforcement could help you channel Legion's developmental phases into teaching him things.

Like, right now my Houla mix is chewing on EVERYTHING. I'm taking advantage of that mouthiness to encourage her to pick things up on command and reinforce "leave it" when she's got something inappropriate. One thing you might want to try that could make things into a game for him is to cut a slit in a tennis ball and put some treats in it, but not so big a slit that he could work out the treats himself. He has to bring it back to you to get the treats. Taught my Houla pup to fetch after about 20 minutes with that method and it can be transferred to teach "pick it up." You've already got your dog picking things up by name, but a more general command might be more useful for your purposes.

Having worked with a strong-willed breed, I also would avoid "roaring" at your dog. Just ignore when he gets over stimulated. When you walk/roll away, they want to find out why. One of the trainers I use makes owners hide when their dogs get too rambunctious and get the zoomies during agility. The owner just goes into the bathroom while the dog is tearing around the facility, and rather than getting rewarded by being chased, even the craziest dog comes to an abrupt halt once they realize their owner isn't in the room anymore. For later purposes, it could be really awkward to be yelling at your service dog in public. Disengaging would be less disruptive.

Interesting that you mention fear period. Apparently, one can expect a Rotti to go through 2 distinct fear periods (also applies to other breeds) Legion went through one long fear period where he jumped at his own shadow, up to about 10mo. He's becoming fairly confident.
Y'day we were in the yard when a storm was approaching. There were several loud peals of thunder where he just sat up & looked in the sounds direction. When he saw no threat he went back to eating grass.

Yes, another trainer would be good, as you say for a fresh perspective. But unfortunately the money I'd saved for that purpose went on an enclosure.

Legion would destroy a tennis ball inside an hour. Then it was pointed out that tennis balls are extremely abrasive & wear down the enamel on their teeth. It makes sense so I use soft plastic balls that for some reason, most of them he hasn't destroyed.
But I do take your point. He needs more mental stimulation. We've been doing nose work. When he's in the mood he's very good at finding the 'prize'.

And yes, I know. Roaring at him is not part of the plan, it's a reaction. Imagine sitting in a high backed chair on the mobility scooter, you're holding a strap on his back when he decides to lunge behind the chair, bending your arm in a direction it was not designed to go. My arm still hurts everytime I move it & had to get an elbow brace to wear when we go for a walk.
On the several occasions where I have bellowed at him, it's due to an accumulation of pain & sheer frustration when I lose my cool. Something that I have to work on.

I've given the wrong impression about the need for a service dog. So I'm not repeating myself I'll explain in my response to Catgirl.

Thanks for your thoughts, I do appreciate it.

[Legion777]

Originally Posted by Catgirl64

I'm very sorry to hear of your misfortune, and I apologize, as well. It was not my intention to poke, and I can tell that you love Legion very much. I gather from your post following this one, that you are not in the US, and I fear I was basing my assumptions on common practice here. I had never heard of anyone selecting a potential service dog as a puppy. All the programs I am aware of take promising pups, train them, and them match them with owners when the training is complete and the dogs have proven themselves in both temperament and ability to fulfill their duties. It must be different where you are?

I hope you can find a solution that works for both you and Legion. I do encourage you to reconsider your stand on neutering, though. Even the best-behaved dog can sometimes go a bit off the rails when encountering a female in heat. I know you consider it mutilation, but wouldn't thwarting his urge to mate be worse? Just some food for thought...

All's well, we're good.
At the time of my diagnosis, my only real concern was for my then 4yo boy. I have no fear of death (just the process) but I was horrified that my son would witness his dads painful, slow demise.
The full diagnosis states; "100% of Buergers disease patients will suffer multiple amputations & death within 2-3 years."
As it turns out, the cannabis that I was using for chronic nerve pain, has stopped further deterioration of my blood vessels. Cannabis has an anti-inflammatory effect that keeps my peripheral arteries from occluding. Four of my fellow patients died horribly within the prescribed time.
Had I been a good boy & followed Dr's orders, I'd have been dead patient #5. I'm one of the lucky ones.

I'm afraid that I gave the wrong impression about the service dog aspect.
Yes we have a similar system here where they match service dogs for those with a disability but they will train an owners dog if it's deemed suitable for the task.
Not only did I choose a Rotti for his size but also for home protection. Our govt. was complicit in a black-flag attack as an excuse to disarm honest citizens. It's now illegal to keep a loaded gun in ones home for protection.
It's one of the reasons why I'm loathe to have him castrated. Legion is a friendly boy but he is protective & an alert watch dog. Castrating a dog can make them docile.

I don't need a service dog to get around. To walk short distances, I don't even need a cane. When I need to walk any distance, I use Canadian crutches. A dog would just get in the way.
My idea was to see if I could get help with training Legion for around the home, anticipating that I'll get less stable on my feet as I age.
When I made some inquiries, I found that they'll only train dogs that have been castrated so I dropped the idea.
That was before I understood the ramifications of Legions Pica & spent the training money on building a paved, covered enclosure.
I'm now thinking that I may still be able to get some help with training because I have a disability. I'm hoping that because I need Legion trained specifically for the home, it might negate their reasons to have him castrated.

As others have pointed out, he will settle as he matures.
Taking a female in heat out in public is just asking for trouble so hopefully that wont be an issue. My last Rotti was entire & I never once had a problem with him.
From my experience, Rottis are usually so committed to protecting their turf, that I've never heard of one being an escape artist or a roamer.
How they'd react to a female on heat though, I couldn't really say. But like my last Rotti, Legion has never tried to escape out the front door. Maybe that's just wishful thinking but at 15mo, there's still plenty of time.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[JrzDefector]

Neutering really does not make the dog "docile"- it just removes a level of distraction or a reason for conflict. I view it as a rearranging of priorities. My male Catahoula was neutered at a few months and was an insanely fierce defender of my home. Hell, he still had an interest in females - it just didn't override his interest in what he was doing for me.

I remember one of my friends came over - a guy who had grown up with gang affiliations and a rather rough criminal history in his youth. I remember asking him if he thought I needed to get an alarm as a single woman in my new home as a single woman, and he laughed. "Not with that dog you don't"

Neuter them later and you don't have the potential physical issues with development that you can get with an early neuter/spay. That's the only thing that drives me crazy about the rescue movement as it can affect a dog's physical development.

[hiero2]

Originally Posted by Legion777

. . .
Not sure of his instinct drives. He does seem to be protective & displays the 'wait & see' attitude that's typical of Rottis. He checks out men he doesn't know & wont take his eyes of them if they're within 30 feet.
I'm looking forward to seeing what I may learn about identifying his instinct drive from the book.
. . .
What makes him obnoxious? From what I can tell it's because he wants to be the boss. People laughed when I said that he was displaying dominant behaviour at 9wo. Time has proved me correct.
He seems to resent being given commands & often has to 'think about it' while I stare at him. He'll usually obey after making me wait. . . .
. . .
Because Rottis can be prone to overheating, I let him dictate the pace which depends on the weather. The warmer it is, the slower he trots.

. . .

Legion is very food focused. Taking into account his willful nature, I'm pleasantly surprised that although he'll sniff food on a bench, or in the bin, he doesn't help himself.
. . .
He loves ripping up paper & cardboard in particular, but again,
. . .

Yeah I've got a book on Rottis that includes their history. It explains why they're surprisingly athletic for a large dog. They're the only large breed, that I'm aware, that will instinctively stand on their hind legs to look over fences or other obstacles.
. . .
Cattle dogs were quite popular when I was a kid. Being a working dog, if they don't have a job they'll find one. The 'Blue Heelers' that were locked up in a yard all day could be quite nasty & we were terrified of them. Many of them had the nasty habit of biting peoples achilles tendons as if we were cattle.

Thanks for your comments & advice, I do appreciate it.

What I've read about Rottis in particular has been like tidbits that were just available as side-topics in other stuff. I've been reading to understand herding dogs better (my current two are farm collie, herding dog types). Some of the differences between herding, droving, and butcher's dogs have come up regularly, but not necessarily exactly what it was that made them different. What I've been able to glean is that herding dogs, like Border Collies, were to gather the animals up from remote pastures. Border collies are specifically bred to handle sheep. Heelers were crossbred out of similar herding collies to be able to handle cattle - and, as you note, they consequently have a tendency to use their teeth. Heelers are, I think somewhere in between herding and droving, as they had to do both. A drover drives the animals over a long distance, so the dogs need to be outliers to keep the animals moving and on a track.

A butcher's dog is more like a drover's, but combined with guardian type work. I think the butcher's herding was only short distance stuff, like from the market to the butcher's place, or from one village to the next. And apparently Rottis were also used as cart dogs to tow carts loaded with the meat after slaughter. So they would guard against strangers, keep the animals on a track, and be calm enough to harness and tow a cart. And, also have a biddability that guardian breeds do not. If you've learned more about Rottis from another source, I'd love to hear it.

Coppinger's book, "Dogs: A New Understanding" did the best job I've seen anywhere at putting some of those instincts into words, but he only does it for the prey sequence. Guarding and biddability are in different instinct boxes, so I don't have word descriptions for how they work, nor how to identify them so well. Coppinger puts the prey drive like this: <eye><stalk><chase><grab><kill><dissect><eat>. <Grab> for dogs is a bite, and so is <kill>. But the kill-bite goes deep, and the grab bite is only a grab and maybe hold. The kill-bite may include the head-shake, which is part of the killing action - break a neck or a back, or tear flesh. Pretty much all the livestock working breeds have been bred (or culled) for millenia to have an instinct prey pattern that drops to near zero after the grab. Anyway, my point here is that the herding patterns are much clearer to me than the guardian, alert, and biddability instinct patterns.

I've not finished McConnell's book myself, yet. I'm about halfway through. But she doesn't talk about instinct patterns like Coppinger does. What she does talk about is how dogs communicate and understand. Yeah, its all instinct, too, but there is a difference. I'll give you an example that will maybe help me say it. The other day a neighbor asked me to care for their aging Border Collie while they were away on business. She is nearly blind from cataracts, partially deaf, and doesn't smell as well as she once did. So we go for a walk. She's toddling along and quite enjoying herself. We get a ways down the road and I want to turn around. She balks, and wants to go straight. She was quite insistent. At this point, I can drag her around to move in the direction I want to go. Or, I can pull a treat out, put it directly in front of her nose so she can smell it, and somehow manage to keep her from grabbing it as I get her to move in the direction I want. With a younger dog, I could take a longer term approach, and always follow up a request with a high-demand activity or treat, so that when I asked, I get eager compliance.

Obviously, the long-term bit is less applicable here. The treat worked, but was tedious and a p.i.t.a., and she wasn't always following it. So, I tried something straight out of McConnell's book: a shoulder check. Dogs use shoulder and hip checks all the time. BTW, I'm using "check" here the way I would for hockey - its a block, a bump, or a nudge. Since she was old and infirm, it was gentle. I got right up next to her and brought her in to a very close heel, with her on the inside of the turn, and just applied a little pressure on her shoulder in the direction I wanted her to go. Bingo - worked like a charm. Seems so simple and obvious when I say it, yeah? I don't think I've ever heard a trainer mention it before! But you see what I'm saying: McConnell has helped me to understand better what a dog might be doing to communicate, and how I can communicate with the dog. Coppinger helped me to understand how a dog's instinct patterns might express themselves - but that wasn't the point of his writing, which is why I don't think you would get much particularly for Legion by reading Coppinger.

I know you will get this next bit. One of the things I learned because of the herding dogs I have today is using the dog's strong instinct pattern as its own reward. All of a sudden, I had a whole new way to reward good behavior besides just using food and affection. My two have a strong alerting drive - they bark at passersby. Trying to suppress it doesn't work at all. So I work with it, and take a couple of seconds to pay attention to what they are alerting to. Then I tell them "that'll do", and ask them to stop. We're still working on it, but allowing the instinct to work and directing how it should work, is working to control the barking so it isn't non-stop.

You've already noticed Legion exhibiting an alert instinct - how and when he keeps his <eye> on strangers. At some point, if he feels like they are a threat, he will likely escalate - a warning bark - or a growl - then a warning grimace - to be followed by action. I don't know how the other instincts will manifest, or even if they will. A lot of dogs today don't have instinct drives strong enough that we need to notice it. I know my two have a sense of order. They like things to happen on schedule, and in the proper pattern. Makes sense if you thing about it - a farm runs on a schedule. The cattle leave the barn in the morning, and come back at evening. Chickens - henhouse - same thing. Fox comes around - he's not part of the proper pattern. Farm animal (or child) does something "out-of-bounds" - like wandering in the road, and the dog moves to put them back into the yard. Order. I have to wonder if Rottis would have some of that. Could be why he'll leave that food on the bench alone. Ripping up the paper and cardboard could be a drive that you can use somehow as a play/reward behavior.

Overheating - yeah, got to watch that! In summer one of mine has to slow down his runs. He just doesn't handle the heat as well.

It's been an interesting conversation. Keep us in touch with how you and Legion progress!

[hiero2]

I just had a "click" moment. My male dog was lying in the hallway where he can view the front door, the roadway through windows, and the stairs to the garage door. He snoozing, but he is on guard duty, self-appointed. If something happens, he will alert. He is also in the way of us as we move through the house. There is no more central point for foot-traffic.

So if I tell him to move? He doesn't have a positive motivation to do that. He thinks he's at work.

And it made me think of how you described Legion - lying in the doorway. It makes me wonder if he isn't doing something like my male - at rest, but at rest in a way that he can be on guard.

It makes me think of two things - 1, apply more positive training to changing his position (e.g. fall back to "Come" with frequent treats), or 2, find a way to use his "work" drive that takes him away from that position when you need it. Ask him to help you move, or maybe even just recognition that he is doing something (even though he is just lying there). It may sound silly, but my two change how they alert when I do something as simple as recognize that they are doing something. They bark, I say "good job, it's just a walker. He's ok." and they start changing their pattern. If they need a bit more, I add "that'll do. Come." - but the point is that recognition does something. If I just start right in on "no", or "stop", I quickly have to escalate to shouting, and it doesn't seem to change what they do the next time.

[JONOV]

Originally Posted by Catgirl64

I may be a complete simpleton, but how on earth do you plan to make a service dog out of an animal you say no one else can get near?

I'm also wondering why you have to train him yourself. I didn't realize that the education of a service dog was a DIY kind of thing.

What am I missing here?

They are extremely expensive and not always easy to get one placed.

I know two people that have done it. One has done an amazing job. I am unaware of the nature of her disabilities but they aren't "obvious" though it is very clear she struggles to live a normal life.

The other has also done a great job training the dog, though I wonder if the dog is temperamentally fit or some of the small issues I see are a result of socialization issues. She suffers from a TBI, Spinal cord injuries, PTSD. She claims the dog is for PTSD but she has actually trained it for a bunch of things. He acts as ballast for her when she gets wobbly. She has force-broke him so he will pick up and bring to hand anything she directs him to, as she can't bend over well. He lies on top of her when she has a seizure.

[Legion777]

Originally Posted by twelvepaw

Yes, CCPDT is an international certification; there are CPDT-KA (and -KSA) trainers all over the world. If there isn't a certified trainer in his area I would need to know what country he is in to be able to research whether there is another comparable certifying agency specific to his area.

I'm an Aussie.
The $350 wasn't a quote per se but heard it from an acquaintance with her own 'problem child'.
She said that was for a one on one 2 hourly session. One would presume that that included a couple of follow up sessions at that price but she didn't mention it.

The trainer Steve developed a system & now has 'certified trainers' like a franchise (K9Pro)
Whether the acquaintance left out details I'm not sure but I have heard many times that he's really expensive.

He's considered one of the best. I've used his 'Triangle of Temptation' method to teach Legion to sit before his food before given the command to have at it. (There's a 'T o T' you-tube instructional vid)

That's the odd thing; Legion is extremely food motivated & gets quite excited when the food comes out, especially when he can smell that he's getting boiled eggs or fish with his dinner. But he WILL sit, quivering with anticipation until given the command to eat, 100% of the time since 3mo.

And yes, I agree with your comment that any competent trainer would know how to calm a dog.
The only one that I've tried so far was a cretin who worked for the local council who probably learnt what he knows from a book.

[Legion777]

Originally Posted by Mikala43

Glad you are feeling better. I would hate for anything to cause you and Legion to part ways.

Wow, $350 is steep. If you are partially disabled can that be used to get a discount? Maybe place an ad in Craigslist, with your situation, and your budget.... urm... maybe that is not the best idea, cause you don't want some jerk... just trying to brainstorm.

Thanks. Legions been fairly good since the other day. It no-doubt has helped that I've been calmer & more patient. (The title of this thread speaks volumes for my state-of-mind at the time. A sure sign that I'm at the end of my tether when Legions being obnoxious is when I say 'Keep that up & you're losing your balls!'. God knows what the neighbours think, lol)

It dawned on me y'day while reading everyones comments that because I have a disability, I may well qualify for help from the service dog system, so that Legions exuberance doesn't cause me an injury.
At 50kg he's a powerful boy.
Maybe if I ask for help from that angle, I'll qualify for assistance. Worth a try.

[Mikala43]

Dogs will reflect their owner's state of mind (so I have heard).