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I see nothing wrong with being "forced" to work to meet my basic needs. I think everyone should feel some need to take responsibility for their own survival.
Sure, but there are several definitions of that.
You can either
A. Have the physical means, such as owning a large property to grow food, and sufficient building materials for a dwelling, etc. You will only use your own labor.
B. Have the independent monetary wealth to pay for everything you need from others without using any additional labor.
C. Own capital which you charge others to use, and then exchange the stolen labor value for everything you need.
D. Own capital which you only employ yourself to use, exchanging the labor value for what you need.
E. Be enslaved to such a person as C describes
Three of those are good options, one is decent and one is lame. The lame one is where most of us sit, because for one reason or other we lack the means to obtain one of the other 4.
A. Have the physical means, such as owning a large property to grow food, and sufficient building materials for a dwelling, etc. You will only use your own labor.
B. Have the independent monetary wealth to pay for everything you need from others without using any additional labor.
C. Own capital which you charge others to use, and then exchange the stolen labor value for everything you need.
D. Own capital which you only employ yourself to use, exchanging the labor value for what you need.
E. Be enslaved to such a person as C describes
Three of those are good options, one is decent and one is lame. The lame one is where most of us sit, because for one reason or other we lack the means to obtain one of the other 4.
So, with your logic, someone like me who owns capital and employs people at a good wage/full benefits is actually "stealing their labor" and "enslaving" them? If you are paying a fair labor cost (competitive salary), how is it "stolen labor"? Or is every business owner a capitalist-pig, labor thief, slave owner? Most owners I know have taken great risks and personal sacrifices to build their businesses/capital and pay a fair wage. Risks and sacrifices that many of the "enslaved" have specifically chosen not to take in order to live a less stressful life.
So, with your logic, someone like me who owns capital and employs people at a good wage/full benefits is actually "stealing their labor" and "enslaving" them? If you are paying a fair labor cost (competitive salary), how is it "stolen labor"?
Profit is stolen labor value. Unless you are an employee of the company, and are making a market salary, and the company is operating at 0 net profit, you are stealing their labor value.
Wait a second, Im sorry, let me revise that, they are actually contractually exchanging their labor value under economic duress, if you want to get techincal about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCUBS1
Or is every business owner a capitalist-pig, labor thief, slave owner? Most owners I know have taken great risks and personal sacrifices to build their businesses/capital and pay a fair wage. Risks and sacrifices that many of the "enslaved" have specifically chosen not to take in order to live a less stressful life.
Risk is a symptom of capitalism. Because you require stolen labor value to compensate you for market risk, has nothing to do with the fact that it is still stolen labor value. Thats like a guy who stole some bread, does it matter whether he was hungry or not? He still stole the bread.
Profit is stolen labor value. Unless you are an employee of the company, and are making a market salary, and the company is operating at 0 net profit, you are stealing their labor value.
Wait a second, Im sorry, let me revise that, they are actually contractually exchanging their labor value under economic duress, if you want to get techincal about it.
So, would you advocate that I fire my very-competitively paid employees so that I don't continue to steal their labor value? Or, should I make more expenditures and operate at 0 net profit? If I make 0 net profit, the bank will pull my line of credit in which case I will be out of business. But on the positive side, I will no longer be able to "steal labor" from my employees. My labor stealing has unfortunately resulted in my employees being able to afford houses, cars, childrens' education, dental appointments, maternity care, etc... My bad.. Please advise on how I should proceed with my business. I really want to stop all this labor stealing I'm doing. I'm all ears...
Why is making tons of money so important? Because I like spending tons of money... I have YET to see ONE person accept the offer of me spending their money for free... not ONE person... So I guess, I will "have" to make lots of money if I want to spend as much...
So, would you advocate that I fire my very-competitively paid employees so that I don't continue to steal their labor value? Or, should I make more expenditures and operate at 0 net profit?
To "fairly" compensate your employees, you would divide all of your profits in to their salaries. However, you dont, because you feel you deserve a cut of what they earn for your risk, or your ego, or because you want a new Corvette, or whatever the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCUBS1
If I make 0 net profit, the bank will pull my line of credit in which case I will be out of business. But on the positive side, I will no longer be able to "steal labor" from my employees.
Again, lines of credit. Because you are dominoed off another capitalist, so you feel that labor value robbery is justified, does not make it right. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is never right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCUBS1
My labor stealing has unfortunately resulted in my employees being able to afford houses, cars, childrens' education, dental appointments, maternity care, etc... My bad.. Please advise on how I should proceed with my business. I really want to stop all this labor stealing I'm doing. I'm all ears...
You operate in a capitalistic system, which makes it impossible to change the way you do business. You are not doing anything neccessarily "wrong" in so much as it applies to your surroundings. A person can not be vilified for gaming a garbage system.
However, if your employees made their full labor value, they would be far more motivated to produce then if they are simply handed some wage independent of their production. That is fact.
Randomdude - the core flaw with your favored plan is that most humans are not satisfied with the median existence. After satisfying their most basic needs - food and shelter - they want more. They will work in some way to get more. It could be better food, better shelter, or something they value as luxurious.
Only theorists believe everyone wants to be equal. Inequality is OK as long as people have what they think they earned.
The struggle you highlight between workers and the enslavers doesn't really exist in most places (including the US). The warfare you imagine is what Marxists, Communists, and other variants use to seize power.
Randomdude - the core flaw with your favored plan is that most humans are not satisfied with the median existence. After satisfying their most basic needs - food and shelter - they want more. They will work in some way to get more. It could be better food, better shelter, or something they value as luxurious.
And I agree with this. Most people, especially Americans, would gladly take a 1% chance at being ultra rich, over 100% chance of being median.
By the way, a median existance would provide much more then a simple existance with basic needs filled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano
Only theorists believe everyone wants to be equal. Inequality is OK as long as people have what they think they earned.
Mild inequality is ok, if comparing people who put forth the same effort. Some jobs are inherently more difficult, taxing, etc, or simply produce goods that are of more value, and should be rewarded at an elevated level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano
The struggle you highlight between workers and the enslavers doesn't really exist in most places (including the US). The warfare you imagine is what Marxists, Communists, and other variants use to seize power.
1. Marxists do not "seize" power. A true Marxist revolution is non violent, and arises from the people up.
2. The struggle does not exist because Americans are stupid and complacent, and will live and die making $10 an hour as long as you dont erase the myth that they might one day be a millionaire which has been drilled in to their head since they were born. If we spent more time educating and advertising the statistical chances people have of never being anything no matter how hard they work, rather then highlighting the one in a million guy who went from shining shoes to driving a Maybach, people may actually catch on to reality and wouldnt be so content.
Can anyone explain to me why it's SO important to make a lot of money?
My parents are pretty successful hardworking individuals who now live very comfortably. For me, I personally don't have a problem with earning a middle-class wage and living a middle-class lifestyle - I honestly believe that after earning enough to meet my basic needs, I would like to spend my free time going fishing, mountain-climbing, swimming, hunting, or just relaxing somewhere instead of fighting to get a higher paycheck.
But whenever I mention this to my parents, they go nuts - looking at me like I'm insane not to want to strive for more. I've seen my dad work 18 hour days and it ain't pretty. Sure, he made boatloads more money from doing so, but there's a LOT of things he sacrificed in order to do it.
But I'm a pretty naive and idealistic kid. I'll admit it. Having been coddled all my life, I honestly don't know what the real world is like. And when it comes to important decisions, I'd say my parents are probably right 99% of the time. Which is why I'm wondering if the importance of money is just something that grows on you as you get older and mature. Am I not taking this seriously enough because I'm still immature and naive?
Or is making boatloads of money really not all that important in the grand scheme of things? Is this one of those 1% of the time when my parents are actually wrong?
To me your message seem to support the saying that "You are a product of your environment". It seems your parents may have had a tough life in their young years. I do not know. They made it a goal in life not to live in deprivation and not wanting their kids to go through what they have. Now, YOU, by your own admission have been cuddled so to some degree your upbringing does not put much importance on money as it did on them.
The question I would ask is if they are happy in their lives. If so, who cares what others think. They pursued happiness as they see fit. I get the feeling that in your eyes they are wrong because they do not have same views you have in life as they have so to answer your question if they could be wrong would be a futile effort on my part. The best I can say is that they live life as they see fit and you live yours as you see fit. This is a very subjective subject when it comes to personal views in life specially when the views are a generation appart, take care.
To "fairly" compensate your employees, you would divide all of your profits in to their salaries. However, you dont, because you feel you deserve a cut of what they earn for your risk, or your ego, or because you want a new Corvette, or whatever the case.....
You are making a heck of a lot of assumptions about me and employers... You sound naive... I am not taking profit to "buy a new Corvette" and live the big life... My profit "cut" is re-invested back into growing the business so that it can pay more people a very competitive wage and benefits.
If I evenly divided all my profits into the salaries of my employees (most of whom do not have the business investment experience or desire), the business would not make enough profit to cover expenditures to build infrastructure, buy product/capital equipment, mitigate risk via insurance, etc. etc. But destruction of business is what you support, right?
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