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Well said, both of you! What I don't understand is if people in the 1950's were perfectly happy with their 900-square foot homes and standard clothing, why people need so much more to be "happy" today?
I would argue a 1950's middle class lifestyle could be supported on one average 8-hour salary today. In fact, the inflation adjusted pricing of many of these items has dropped compared to the 1950's! (food gas/cars, etc, come to mind). The problem is that now everyone wants a 2010's middle class lifestyle, which is incredibly wasteful, while giving people no additional happiness.
Where I live a family earning the average salary would be either homeless, carless, or insuranceless.
Where I live a family earning the average salary would be either homeless, carless, or insuranceless.
Care to share that income level?
I technically live on about minimum wage in expenses right now (in one of the most expensive cities in America), and each day I am stunned by how awesome we have it compared to people in the past.
Car ownership has risen over time, suggesting more people are affording cars than ever before.
People complain at the costs of food, but look where they spend all their money! Eating out! Eating out costs more. We're so lazy this day and age we can't even prepare our own food. I've been starting teaching myself to cook lately and not only is the food really good - it's cheap! Impoverished people in this day in age tend to buy convenience food items, not the items that will help them save money and get out of poverty.
Let's face it - we have it awesome today! But our desire to have even more has increased faster than our rate of obtaining those desires.
Boy are you missing the point. Middle class is about being able to have a family and afford to be able to provide food, shelter, and a little bit extra for them. That's not possible for the average person today. Wages have collapsed. Our standard of living has collapsed, regardless of whether people can afford cheap Chinese junk tvs for a measly couple hundred bucks.
One final point-
When I was a kid in the 80's, every family provided new clothes for kids as they grew up. There was no such thing as second hand clothing except for the hopelessly destitute. Nowadays it's common for families to clothe their children with 2nd hand clothing. This is not progress.
I was also a kid in the 80's, and you clearly didn't live the sort of life my family led.
Second hand clothes were commonplace, and until I was able to get my own paper route, the only new clothes I got every year were one set of church clothes at Christmas time.
We only owned one car, and since my dad took that to work, our transportation consisted of the bus. Which is why we lived in the neighborhood we did - it was on the bus route. If we didn't take the bus, we walked. And I lived in the snowiest city in the country.
We never took fancy vacations. Our yearly vacation consisted of 2 weeks camping with our cousins. I didn't stay in a hotel until I went to college.
My dad was paid every 2 weeks, and I can still remember my mom furiously clipping coupons and planning meals to stretch our dollar until the next check came in. One of those stores we visited was a store that sold canned food that no longer had labels. Cheap, for sure, but made for interesting meal.
We only went out to eat once a year - on the night we took the bus downtown to see Christmas lights. While we were there, we ate at a cafeteria. I can still remember my first time in a "real" restaurant, when a group of friends saved our money to splurge in high school.
We were not hopelessly destitute, and considered ourselves solidly middle class. I was surrounded by other families just like us. People like you, who could afford new clothes and ate out a lot, were rich to us.
The way most kids live now, with electronics, huge TV's and multiple cars, IS progress.
I was also a kid in the 80's, and you clearly didn't live the sort of life my family led.
Second hand clothes were commonplace, and until I was able to get my own paper route, the only new clothes I got every year were one set of church clothes at Christmas time.
We only owned one car, and since my dad took that to work, our transportation consisted of the bus. Which is why we lived in the neighborhood we did - it was on the bus route. If we didn't take the bus, we walked. And I lived in the snowiest city in the country.
We never took fancy vacations. Our yearly vacation consisted of 2 weeks camping with our cousins. I didn't stay in a hotel until I went to college.
My dad was paid every 2 weeks, and I can still remember my mom furiously clipping coupons and planning meals to stretch our dollar until the next check came in. One of those stores we visited was a store that sold canned food that no longer had labels. Cheap, for sure, but made for interesting meal.
We only went out to eat once a year - on the night we took the bus downtown to see Christmas lights. While we were there, we ate at a cafeteria. I can still remember my first time in a "real" restaurant, when a group of friends saved our money to splurge in high school.
We were not hopelessly destitute, and considered ourselves solidly middle class. I was surrounded by other families just like us. People like you, who could afford new clothes and ate out a lot, were rich to us.
The way most kids live now, with electronics, huge TV's and multiple cars, IS progress.
I remember things totally differently. I think 'the proof is in the pudding', as they say. Wages have collapsed over the past 20 years and prices of everything- especially necessities like food, insurance, housing, and college education have exploded. Can we agree that this is factually true? And if that's true, you were not solidly middle class when you were a kid.
I remember things totally differently. I think 'the proof is in the pudding', as they say. Wages have collapsed over the past 20 years and prices of everything- especially necessities like food, insurance, housing, and college education have exploded. Can we agree that this is factually true? And if that's true, you were not solidly middle class when you were a kid.
As I just stated in my post, the definition of "necessities" continues to increase. The average price has risen - because people are getting larger houses, cars with more features, etc. compared to the past. College/insurance have their own excessive spending/government distortion I won't elaborate on here.
As I just stated in my post, the definition of "necessities" continues to increase. The average price has risen - because people are getting larger houses, cars with more features, etc. compared to the past. College/insurance have their own excessive spending/government distortion I won't elaborate on here.
Actually you are wrong about this. The price of food, for example, hasn't exploded due to an increase in quality of food. As to government distortion of college expenses and insurance, hey I agree with you but that doesn't negate my point it reinforces it. As to housing and cars, actually the price of small homes and non luxury cars has also exploded at a rate that has FAR outpaced wages.
I was born in 1965. I graduated in high school in 1983. My mom was a housewife, she stayed at home to raise 8 kids. My dad worked. Going out to eat was something that we might get to do once or twice a year. My mom made us breakfast and when I say made, she didn't warm up something from out of a box or can, she made it from food. We raised our own chickens and ducks for both the eggs and the meat. We always had a garden in the back yard. My mom baked her own bread from wheat that she ground. As a kid I remember watching my parents can peaches, strawberry jam, and a lot of other things. It seemed that we always had mason jars around the house. Did we have new clothes? Yes and many times there were shirts that my mom sewed on her sewing machine. I also remember going to the thrift store to buy pants.
My mom never drove a car. If we had to go to a Doctors appointment we walked and one Doctor was maybe 4 miles from my parents home. The Dentist was only a few miles away so that was cool.
Our home had a TV, as in one TV and it was black and white without a remote. As kids we were the remote. TV screens were not that big either. We had a 20" TV and thought that was big. My dad ended up buying a 13" when the 20" stopped working. Finally in 1985 my parents bought a 20" color TV. Like the black and white TV's it only had maybe 13 channels. Had a button for each channel if you can believe that. The older TV's had a dial that you would turn to pick a channel. When my parents bought that color TV I was able to take the black and white and put it in my room, a room that I shared with two other brothers.
No one had the internet that I knew of anyway. Few people had computers either.
Debt was avoided as much as possible. My dad to this day wont have a car loan longer than 24 months. Back when I was a kid that was the norm. I remember when my parents were talking about these crazy people spending more than they could afford because they could get a 4 year loan on a car. If you can't pay cash then you can not afford it.
If it broke we fixed it. If you wanted to do something to the house we did it. People worked back then on projects on, in and around the house. You didn't pay a landscape company to cut the grass, you did it yourself.
Life was much different back in the 1960's, 1970's, and 1980's. The interesting thing is that we can go back to living just like that. My cable bill which includes the Phone and Internet is $120 a month or so. Our family cell phone bill is closing in on $200 a month. That is $320 a month we will never see again. Just this month we have spent maybe $600 that we did not have to spend, yes we eat out once in a while, we buy easy to fix foods. My wife and I both work so it is tiring to do that and put a nice meal on the table. How much more money are we blowing by trying to maintain a lifestyle?
Actually you are wrong about this. The price of food, for example, hasn't exploded due to an increase in quality of food. As to government distortion of college expenses and insurance, hey I agree with you but that doesn't negate my point it reinforces it. As to housing and cars, actually the price of small homes and non luxury cars has also exploded at a rate that has FAR outpaced wages.
Just did some quick investigation and food prices are doing just fine vs inflation. Yes, they're up, but not compared to the past. Lot's more data out there.
I remember things totally differently. I think 'the proof is in the pudding', as they say. Wages have collapsed over the past 20 years and prices of everything- especially necessities like food, insurance, housing, and college education have exploded. Can we agree that this is factually true? And if that's true, you were not solidly middle class when you were a kid.
No, not going to "agree factually". You may remember things differently because you lived differently.
Wages have not collapsed. Maybe people are unable to survive on the wages they earn, but that is completely different. And conveniently ignoring spending habits.
I wasn't middle class? You're calling me a liar? When you don't know me at all? Nice......
No, not going to "agree factually". You may remember things differently because you lived differently.
Wages have not collapsed. Maybe people are unable to survive on the wages they earn, but that is completely different. And conveniently ignoring spending habits.
I wasn't middle class? You're calling me a liar? When you don't know me at all? Nice......
For you to make the statement "wages have not collapsed" is a non starter.
The sky is not red and denial is not a river in Egypt. Wages have most certainly collapsed. Please try arguing that the price of college and the price of insurance has not exploded faster than wages. I can't wait to hear your response.
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