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Guys like that HVAC guy could go out and work on one or two installation jobs (he might do HVAC, I might install the telephone lines, network cable, etc.) a day. Each day we might start at 8am, finish by 2pm ,sit around at some Mexican restaurant and chill in the cool breezes while everyone else was fighting rush hour traffic. But the same people would look down at us and sneer at us for wearing blue shirts. I recall meeting two guys that got paid $10K per gig just for resurfacing sporting surfaces. People might sneer at them as 'poor blokes' but not me. They had so much business they were passing cards around asking for help.
The same HVAC guy, he lives in a small 'typically middle class house' and drives a regular ol' automobile and will likely retire to a very, very exotic location.
My observation is that most people go for the typical "what will make the most money careers" (doctor, lawyer) or "what will make them seem cool" or what will impress their friends/buddies/neighbors and all of that "competing with the Jones' " nonsense to the extent of overlooking less flossy options.
My point was that it's the "spend less than you make" part that is critical to becoming wealthy. If you steadily save & invest through your entire work career, you don't need doctor/corporate lawyer income to hit age 65 very well off. The book "The Millionaire Next Door" has that as their main point.
There are plenty of guys who "wear blue shirts" who spend every penny and have maxed out credit cards just like there are lots of physicians, attorneys, and corporate executives with big debt and a spending problem. The personal savings rate in the United States is horrible. 70th percentile net worth for the 55 to 64 age bracket is $350K. Most people don't save. At best, they buy a house, throw a little at a 401(k) or IRA, and spend the rest.
My point was that it's the "spend less than you make" part that is critical to becoming wealthy. If you steadily save & invest through your entire work career, you don't need doctor/corporate lawyer income to hit age 65 very well off. The book "The Millionaire Next Door" has that as their main point.
There are plenty of guys who "wear blue shirts" who spend every penny and have maxed out credit cards just like there are lots of physicians, attorneys, and corporate executives with big debt and a spending problem. The personal savings rate in the United States is horrible. 70th percentile net worth for the 55 to 64 age bracket is $350K. Most people don't save. At best, they buy a house, throw a little at a 401(k) or IRA, and spend the rest.
Yes. Good point. There is a related way of doing thing: spend money only on things that will make you money or otherwise bear fruit--things that produce. Its interesting how many people see houses or cars as ends in and of themselves when a house or a car are still 'crucibles of facilitation'. The producing is mainly with hands and brains. A house is a place to stay and be clean and rest and refresh. A car is to get you from here to there. Sadly a lot of people really don't have a clue about life. Its not about the stuff its about life and the living and living it.
Last edited by CaptainCommander; 05-28-2016 at 10:17 AM..
Not everything devolves to return on investment, in a narrowly pecuniary sense. The Anglo-American psyche seems to be particularly influenced by the view that education must be practical, that it must lead to a quantifiable self-betterment – and even more importantly, to a self-betterment that increases one's capacity to turn a buck.
I understand your point, but I'm not sure I agree it is as monetarily focused as you opine.
Yes, the Morrill Act (Land-Grant College Act of 1862) provided grants of land to states to finance the establishment of colleges specializing in “agriculture and the mechanic arts." I believe the text of the laws establishing Land Grant Colleges reads
"...where the leading object shall be, without excluding other scientific and classical studies and including military tactic, to teach such branches of learning as are related to agriculture and the mechanic arts, in such manner as the legislatures of the States may respectively prescribe, in order to promote the liberal and practical education of the industrial classes in the several pursuits and professions in life."
The world has changed since 1862, of course. Just go to any University, let alone a Liberal Arts College or Land Grant University and count the number of people who major in the disciplines associated with the "Intelligentsia" instead of "the practical arts." Heck, at Carnegie Mellon, you can even major in bagpipes. Just count the list of majors & programs of study among major research universities associated with the Intelligentsia:
The faculty at major universities continue to focus on & encourage their students in the pursuit of knowledge “for its own sake” and, simultaneously, as the educational foundation for youth preparing to occupy positions of power and influence in society as members of the Intelligentsia who will Think Great Thoughts and discuss them In Salon with other Thinkers of Great Thoughts.
This view is quaint, reactionary, and of course relies upon public funding of such private endeavors where the ROI to society's investment in The Great Thinker is unclear. It is indicative of a time many decades ago when bright young men went to Harvard or Yale to assume their rightful spot among other Intelligentsia without regard to returning economic benefit to society for the investment society made in them in the first place. Worst case (or best case, depending on your point of view) such now-educated men might pursue a career in Foreign Service or other branch of the Federal Government. It was indicative of an era where the purpose of higher education was not to prepare you for a job but rather to prepare you to be a better citizen where you would then go on to your rightful place managing the country.
The current movement is that higher education is no longer higher (only intended for the bright and promising). Indeed, many people argue higher education should become basic in that it is provided for free to all comers in the same way that primary and secondary education are both "free" and expected.
Indeed, one can argue that a University educating someone merely to be a better citizen has failed if, as in the current economy, that educated citizen has no way to support himself economically. You cannot be a better citizen if you cannot support yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant
This is very different from the Continental European view, the Russian view, the Indian view and so forth.
The "Intelligentsia" isn't starving (except now, in post-Soviet Russia) or living off of welfare. It is generally comfortable materially, but rarely in the upper echelons of wealth… in modern America, it would be say in the top quintile, but outside of the top few percentages. This group, I contend, in America is remarkably small.
Again, go hang out in a café or bookstore near any major university.
For me personally, a large part of quality of life is contingent upon being in the frequent and abiding company of such people. Locally they are almost entirely absent. We have a smattering of affluence locally; it's not all meth and Section-8. But the successful locals are mostly like SportyandMisty's hustling tradesmen.[/quote]
Sounds like you would prefer to live somewhere such as Palo Alto, Hyde Park, Cambridge or New Haven
This is the Economics forum; economics focuses on the efficient allocation of resources in a society of unlimited wants and desires.
Last edited by SportyandMisty; 05-28-2016 at 10:36 AM..
Yes. Good point. There is a related way of doing thing: spend money only on things that will make you money or otherwise bear fruit--things that produce. Its interesting how many people see houses or cars as ends in and of themselves when a house or a car are still 'crucibles of facilitation'. The producing is mainly with hands and brains. A house is a place to stay and be clean and rest and refresh. A car is to get you from here to there. Sadly a lot of people really don't have a clue about life. Its not about the stuff its about life and the living and living it.
You can't realistically make every financial decision that way. If you did, the logical outcome would be that you're living in a cardboard box under the railroad bridge, showering at the Y, and eating rice & beans. You'd invest as close to 100% of your income as possible. That's what a miser does.
For most of us, we need to set our personal guidelines to save & invest some percentage of our income as it comes in. Slow & steady. The personal savings rate in the United States is a very pathetic 5-ish percent. For most people, the answer is somewhere between 10% and 20% of their income targeted at savings & investing. 2016 investment math is a great unknown. Returns today look nothing like what a balanced stock/bond/real estate portfolio has yielded historically. There's no telling what it might be. My Magic 8 Ball has been very ineffective.
My point was that it's the "spend less than you make" part that is critical to becoming wealthy. If you steadily save & invest through your entire work career, you don't need doctor/corporate lawyer income to hit age 65 very well off. The book "The Millionaire Next Door" has that as their main point.
When I was a kid I got lectured many times, about the example set by my uncle. He worked for an insurance company, in charge of their adjusters. He always had a new luxury car, manicured hands and tailored suits. My aunt visited the beauty parlor weekly. They hosted cocktail parties all the time with his clients, etc. To all outward appearances, they were very wealthy. Yet every 4 or 5 years, he would go to my grandfather, hat-in-hand begging for a loan.
When I came along, my grandparents were seasonal cannery workers and owned a bunch of rental houses. After the Dust Bowl and Grapes-of-Wraith migration, they spent a decade as migratory farm workers, trying to get their stake back in the game. They were not very keen on this fancy suit who had married their daughter living on credit and debt, thinking he was so much better for having a college degree and rubbing elbows with corporate execs.
Work hard, live within your means, stay out of debt.
Quote:
... There are plenty of guys who "wear blue shirts" who spend every penny and have maxed out credit cards just like there are lots of physicians, attorneys, and corporate executives with big debt and a spending problem. The personal savings rate in the United States is horrible. 70th percentile net worth for the 55 to 64 age bracket is $350K. Most people don't save. At best, they buy a house, throw a little at a 401(k) or IRA, and spend the rest.
C-D has a very skewed view of "the trades." We can bring up anecdotes all we want, but the stats show that the middle class is shrinking and those blue collar style jobs are precisely the ones taking the brunt of the decrease.
HVAC technicians make a median $20.00 an hour. They range from making $30-70K a year. HVAC Service Technician Salary That will not make you rich. If you work your way up to become an HVAC business-person who gets big contracts like sports stadiums and stuff... then you have graduated from technician to contractor who happens to be in the heating/cooling business.
You can't realistically make every financial decision that way. If you did, the logical outcome would be that you're living in a cardboard box under the railroad bridge, showering at the Y, and eating rice & beans. You'd invest as close to 100% of your income as possible. That's what a miser does.
For most of us, we need to set our personal guidelines to save & invest some percentage of our income as it comes in. Slow & steady. The personal savings rate in the United States is a very pathetic 5-ish percent. For most people, the answer is somewhere between 10% and 20% of their income targeted at savings & investing. 2016 investment math is a great unknown. Returns today look nothing like what a balanced stock/bond/real estate portfolio has yielded historically. There's no telling what it might be. My Magic 8 Ball has been very ineffective.
What exactly is unrealistic about spending money on:
1. basics (food, clothing, shelter)
2. things that bring more skills or that aid in producing cashflows, needful things.
... rather than purposeless trinkets that impresses their friends yet produces nothing substantial (there maybe a time or place for that $2,000 watch or those $400 jogging shoes).
I suspect you get that I'm referring to the people that spend $200 on a pairs of jeans and $300 on a pair of shoes and $400 on a PS4 but yet their head is empty and they think the world is against them because the PS4 doesn't lay chicken eggs when they are hungry. I'm not even suggesting OCD or extreme belt-tightening. Just spending money on fruitful things. But of course, for those in a standard corporate employment indenture, that might not make sense because the only thing in their world as far as they are concerned is capable of producing is their employee and their job is there to catch some gold dust falling from someone else's mill--fair enough. Even remains the obvious wisdom in spending money on books or learning materials that will enhance one's ability to be of service and put one in the position to demand greater cashflow participation ($$$) rather then blowing it on cocaine or unnecessary and expensive nonsense. Merely 'saving' money doesn't necessarily produce jack.
Most people I have observed will buy a kid a $400 PS4 but would go "NO WAY" if the kid wanted $199 for a woodworking Mastery DVD. They will spend hundreds of dollars on fast food every a week and look at you like scorned and stupid fool for having an herb garden.
To see having a $2M mansion as a place where you can stay refreshed and have a nice yard and spend quality time for your family and as a springboard for productivity in all aspects of life is one thing. To see it as an end in and of itself is silly. Much misery is rooted in idiocy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57
C-D has a very skewed view of "the trades." We can bring up anecdotes all we want, but the stats show that the middle class is shrinking and those blue collar style jobs are precisely the ones taking the brunt of the decrease.
HVAC technicians make a median $20.00 an hour. They range from making $30-70K a year. HVAC Service Technician Salary That will not make you rich. If you work your way up to become an HVAC business-person who gets big contracts like sports stadiums and stuff... then you have graduated from technician to contractor who happens to be in the heating/cooling business.
Its nothing to do with skewed view on trades. You fail to associate the great sucking sound with intentional destruction of the U.S. economy. The demand isn't going away its the money that is being pulled out of circulation. Its like attempting to read a map in a hurricane to find out why the wind is blowing. A torpedoing of the U.S. economy has been underfoot; mostly externally inflicted and perhaps partly self-inflicted. The demand for services or goods hasn't really changed; its that cash has been pulled out of the system. Same effect as if you suddenly lost two pints of blood but are still conscious. Its not that you don't have the need climb a flight of stairs you just can't. The 'shrinking of the middle class' is just a symptom of economic strangulation and hypoxia. There was this bailout thing and something to do with Red China.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107
i started life as an hvac tech but didn't like it . to hot , dirty and heavy for my taste . so i taught myself the climate control system end and became a trouble shooter for the mall systems. much nicer cleaner higher paying work .
from there i became interested in designing custom control panels and ended up becoming a motor control and variable frequency drive specialist where earned me a nice 6 figure income . just retired after 40 years last july
That's what I'm talkin' about. You saw opportunity and weren't hesitant about latching on to even better opportunity. You saw a need and met it and everything flowed into your hands to make it work out. A lot of stingy people wonder why the juice doesn't flow, being stingy (one way or another ) is like standing on the juice hose and some have the audacity to b#tch about how bad life is when they don't understand there are spiritual principles at work that they can't beat through snookery.
Last edited by CaptainCommander; 05-28-2016 at 12:00 PM..
C-D has a very skewed view of "the trades." We can bring up anecdotes all we want, but the stats show that the middle class is shrinking and those blue collar style jobs are precisely the ones taking the brunt of the decrease.
HVAC technicians make a median $20.00 an hour. They range from making $30-70K a year. HVAC Service Technician Salary That will not make you rich. If you work your way up to become an HVAC business-person who gets big contracts like sports stadiums and stuff... then you have graduated from technician to contractor who happens to be in the heating/cooling business.
i started life as an hvac tech but didn't like it . to hot every where i had to work , to dirty and everything was to heavy for my taste . so i taught myself the climate control system end and became a trouble shooter for the mall systems. much nicer cleaner higher paying work . few hvac men were able to tackle the highly sophisticated climate control systems .
from there i became interested in designing custom control panels for fans and pumps in the industrial arena and ended up becoming a motor control and variable frequency drive specialist which earned me a nice 6 figure income . just retired after 40 years last july .
it was just a question of taking the basic hvac skills and employing them in to more focused , more technical areas at higher pay . i took advantage of all the free training at factory schools i could get the various company's i worked for to send me to .
everytime i saw something i offered i would bug them to send me
you have to make things happen . you can't float like that cork in water and just land where ever . you have to set your sights on some place and make sure you get there .
i grew up in a nyc housing project so i was just motivated not to fail . there was no option , i was never raising my own family in a project .
it took lots of forward thinking every step of the way and always planning the next step and how i was going to force myself to get there .
if i waited for someone to take me to the next level without making it happen i would still be waiting .
Most high net worth Americans are lying then. Sure, some of them are self-made, particularly those who made their money in tech, but the majority inherited at least a head start. Looking back on people that I went to school with, only one has really made it for himself. The rest were either given everything on a silver plate, or are still running in the rat race.
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