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I used to be a bank manager - I know about credit. And I know that most credit issues can be resolved over time, and that the vast, vast majority of adults make more than minimum wage - considerably more than minimum wage with experience, hard work, and education.
Many employers enjoy a surplus of low-wage labor, in which case Why Pay More?
I know an employer who has lifers in their 40s/50s/60s earning within 25 cents of minimum wage.
Location: Formerly Pleasanton Ca, now in Marietta Ga
10,352 posts, read 8,578,998 times
Reputation: 16698
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudy Dayz
57% of Americans have less than $1,000 of savings. That wouldn't be enough to buy a $5,000 house. Obviously you have never worked for minimum wage. It's not that easy, especially when you are spending $1,000 a month for rent. There are not enough hours in week to earn enough at minimum wage to buy a $30,000 house.
Being that the renters need proof of 3x the amount of rent that means they make at least 36k a year, well over minimum wage.
I'm saying that working any extra job even at minimum wage would be worth it to save and buy a house rather than pay $1,000 a month a month forever.
Working a 2nd job at 7.25 an hour at 25 hours a week, it would take 3 or 4 years to get that $30 k
After that they don't have to pay $1,000 a month. Let's say after taxes and expenses they now save 600 a month not paying rent. In 4 years they have recouped the cost of buying a house.
There are also programs that help low income people buy a house.
Oh, and don't tell me I've never worked for minimum wage.
You don't know me.
I have worked for minimum wage, $1.85 an hour. I haven't done that since doing it part time while in school.
You see I didn't plan on living my life trying to live on minimum wage forever. I went to school to increase my skill set so I could earn more than minimum wage. No one I knew working for minimum wage ever expected to live off of it.
Even after that I worked extra while some of my friends partied on weekends so I could buy real estate while they did not.
So as I've said on this thread, it's all about doing what is needed to get ahead. Some sacrifices now to have a better future.
No one said it would be easy. Nothing is guaranteed in life. Sounds like you've pretty much resigned yourself to your fate in life and don't feel it's worth the extra effort for a little more security in life.
Last edited by aslowdodge; 06-18-2018 at 12:26 AM..
Example I used was a room but the same room here in L.A would probably be $800 or more
If one is in a lower skilled job anywhere it’s not going to be a breeze but my point is it’s more doable in Phoenix for example .
You can find places with your own apartment very cheap in parts of the Midwest etc
This is why a lot of younger people are staying at home to establish themselves, save up money even if they have a college degree .
I’d say if one doesn’t want to go to college the best thing to learn is sale skills . Sky is the limit and companies don’t care if you have a degree if you can sell .
A lot of people make a lot of money selling real estate and cars but also other things .
I don't live in a high COL area. I see McDonalds advertising for $12 to start. Hobby Lobby has a sign in the lobby offering $15 for the night stocking crew.
The reality is nobody, not even the teenagers will get out of bed for $7.25 an hour (minimum wage here in PA.) The employers want someone who will show up on time, not show up high or drunk, and not call out or no show all the time. The employers now have to offer higher wages to get a better worker.
So I think the minimum wage argument is moot, at least in my area due to the free market. Nobody will show up for 7.25 an hour so employers have to offer more money. The government has no need to get involved.
Another point is places that provide so called "McJobs" have been trying to revamp their image. They want their jobs to be seen as possible stepping stone to a career with the company and not just dead end throwaway job.
I didn't say homelessness isn't legal. You are free to walk around on the streets all day long, legally. You are free to sit or even sleep on a sidewalk or bench, legally. You are free to go to a homeless shelter, legally.
You are not free to set up camp on public property. You are not free to harass people while panhandling. You are not free to do drugs, urinate in public, or litter.
If you think that working towards providing food and shelter for yourself is slavery, you haven't studied history at all. For thousands of years, humans have had to work for those things.
Um, not quite. Some cities have made it illegal to sit on the sidewalks and sleep on the benches. Care to try again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20
Does this "underclass" know they can get a college education?
Does this poster have any idea how much college costs these days?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm1982
The richest man in the world.. Jeff Bezos ( founder and CEO ) of Amazon
Was once a McDonald’s employee
Instead of working there for his whole life and saying he deserved more he actually did something about it and said his time at McDonald’s was a learning experience in regards to automation etc .
This is what he said about working there
“He added: "You can learn responsibility in any job if you take it seriously. You learn a lot as a teenager working at McDonald's. It's different from what you learn in school. Don't underestimate the value of that!"”
So because he could do it, everyone can do it? Stretching that a little, aren't you? Besides, if you live in a world of Amazon CEOS, who's going to take your money at the drive thru?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 49erfan916
This. I was gonna suggest this.
In a one bedroom apartment? And what do you do when your landlord won't let you have a roommate? Or raises the rent because you have a roommate? One of my friends moved her elderly mother into her TWO bedroom trailer. Her rent was instantly raised to almost double because she now has someone else in the trailer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trusso11783
That means that people need to get educated or skills that allow them to make more than minimum wage. Sounds simple to me, unless you’re a bleeding heart liberal. Why should anyone that makes no effort to better themselves make any more than minmum wage, which is not intended for someone that wants to live independently?
Well, honey, it works like this: unless you already have a ton of money for college, you won't be going unless you like being in debt the rest of your life. Getting skills and going to college cost MONEY. If you already need money, where is that extra money going to come from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by COJeff
Perhaps these people should get roommates. Minimum wage was never a means to afford a 2 bedroom apartment.
WRONG.
Doesn't anyone study history today in school? How ignorant can people be about minimum wage? All you have to do is look it up!
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
Right on.
When I was in college, I worked at the mall. It wasn't minimum wage but it wasn't far from it. I worked about 30 hours a week, because I had to go to school too. I had no benefits, and I had to pay half my costs of the local college, as well as my living expenses.
So I had two roommates, who were in about the same situation I was in. And hey, it worked! I mean, sometimes we had only crackers in the cabinets and nothing but a piece of cold pizza in the fridge, but we somehow managed to go out every weekend. Imagine that.
Nobody who went to college in the 70s, 80s, or 90s should be allowed to post about how easy it was to go to college. There is no comparison of college in 1993 to college in 2018. Nobody today can work a 30 hr a week job and afford college, let alone pay for books, and apartment, and utilities, even with half a dozen roommates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger
We're not stupid and we can read. "Decent standard of living" is a vague and very subjective term. We have people here on CD who've argued quite seriously that a family with 2 kids in an average cost of living area with a paid off house plus a $1,500,000 investment portfolio that generates 40k a year aren't living a decent standard of living.
Do you really think people in 1935 thought that all single people should be out on their own living in their own apartments? That really wasn't the norm at that time. People had much less living space at that time.
Do I think that people can't read? Sometimes I really wonder.
A great many people in 1935 were homeless, jobless, or losing their homes. I don't care if you think a one bedroom apartment is too fancy for a minimum wage worker or not. The standard is a roof over your head, enough food to eat, and a job that gives you enough of a paycheck to afford that. That's what FDR meant when he wanted a minimum wage for jobs that would pay for a decent standard of living. This isn't rocket science. Why does everyone have such a hard time with it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
And yet the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act exempted agricultural workers.
In 1938, 90% of the US population lived in rural areas and were engaged in agriculture or agricultural-related industries that were exempt from the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act.
Only 10% of the US population lived in urban areas and were engaged in non-agricultural-related work.
In fact, the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act only affected 770,000 workers, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the US Department of Labor, which would be 1.67% of workers in 1938.
It wasn't until 1966 that agricultural workers were covered by an amendment to the Fair Labor Standards Act, but by that time, 54% of Americans were now living in urban areas, and only 46% lived in rural areas and were engaged in agriculture.
That's for those who want to read and learn.
What does that have to do with what Roosevelt said? I get these are different times. But what I don't understand is at one time we could live on minimum wage and that was within my lifetime, well after we had changed from an agricultural society to an urban one, and now we can't.
Quote:
The World has changed dramatically since either 1975 or 1968.
There are now many emerging- and developing-States that are competing globally against the US.
The wages paid in those emerging- and developing-States are not "slave wages." The wages are appropriate for the level of economic development in those countries, and note that Americans were paid nearly the exact same wages, if not the exact same wages, when the US was in the exact same level of economic development.
Historically, what we've seen over the last 2,000 years is that wages generally double about every 10 years in a developing economy, but 2nd Level Economic Development only lasts about 10-30 years. The US is not a developing economy and hasn't been for nearly 70 years. The US is a mature advanced 4th Level Economy (which should have advanced into the 5th Level two decades ago but didn't).
There is nether a logical reason, nor a law, corollary or theory of Economics that says wages should double in advanced economies.
Then why do rents and housing costs double in this advanced economy?
Quote:
In fact, rising wages only makes the US less competitive globally. If you can't deal with the rise of Southeastern Asia, you'll never survive the rise of Central Asia or sub-Saharan Africa, which will happen in the near Future.
Had you started developing those States starting in the 1950s, instead of letting them languish or raping them of their resources and wealth, your wages would never have risen to the levels they are today.
But, you didn't develop them, so now you have to wait until they catch up with the US economically, and that will be a very long painful wait.
What's this "you" you speak of. I had no say in any of that, personally. I was only born in the 1950s. So where did I go wrong in not developing anything?
Quote:
You have 2.5 Billion people without electricity, but once they get electricity, they'll start consuming, so not only will your wages stagnate, the price of everything will start going up.
Good luck with that.
Wages are already stagnating and the price of everything is going up now. Seen gas lately?
Quote:
I never said $367/month is the average price for a 2-bedroom. I said 2-bedroom apartments in Cincinnati start at $367/month, and then posted a photo and link to a nice 2-bedroom apartment that rents for only $495/month, which is something someone earning $7.25/hour can afford, except the minimum wage in Ohio is over $8/hour.
I believe you, but if that were really the cheap hot spot, people would be heading there in droves. But it takes more than cheap housing to solve some of our problems. It costs money to move, someone may need their parent to do free childcare, which they would have to pay for if they moved to Cleveland, or people may have their family and their roots where they're living.
I've personally picked up and moved to a new area where I didn't know anyone three times in my life and have started over. It's not easy, no matter what anyone says.
Quote:
That's totally irrelevant.
There are more than 1,500 separately functioning economies in the US, and the Standard of Living, Life-Style and Cost-of-Living vary greatly in each one.
There are places in the US where someone earning $44,000 annually actually earns $4,000 more than someone earning $100,000 annually.
How can that be? That's how widely the Cost-of-Living varies.
The person earning $44,000 has the same size house, the same size yard, the same number and type of cars, wears the exact same clothing, has all of the exact same amenities, eats out the exact same number of times at the exact same places, goes to the exact same cinema show and sporting events, and everything else that the person earning $100,000 does, except the person earning $44,000 has $4,000 more per year to spend on things.
Wages are based largely on the Supply & Demand for a specific Skill-set in a given Labor Market.
Your government identifies 800+ Skill-sets and there are more than 1,500 Labor Markets in the US.
Even though the minimum wage in Ohio is $8.15/hour, many fast-food restaurants in Cincinnati start at $11.50/hour with a $0.50/hour raise after 6 months, while warehouse workers start at $8.15/hour to $8.25/hour.
Why?
Because warehouse workers are a dime-a-dozen in this Labor Market, while the Supply of workers willing or able to work fast-food is extremely low.
The only way to attract and retain fast-food workers in this specific Labor Market is to pay premium wages.
Yes, I keep hearing this. That the market is supply and demand and therefore when the supply is low, wages will go up. Well, something is wrong here somewhere. Because as fast as wages go up, rents and housing costs go up twice as much and I'm noticing that despite all the "high wage" jobs around, homelessness is just getting worse. Why is that?
Quote:
You may live in a Labor Market where fast-food workers are a dime-a-dozen, but warehouse workers are in short Supply, so fast-food workers will be paid the bare minimum, while warehouse workers are paid premium wages.
In another Labor Market, fast-food workers and warehouse workers may be a dime-a-dozen, or they might both be in short Supply.
In case you can't grasp the concept, this is the United States, not Iceland with a population of 379,000 and a uniform Standard of Living, Life-Style and Cost-of-Living.
None of what you said is going to make a great deal of difference to the person sleeping on the sidewalk. I doubt if he'd take any satisfaction in hearing about the Labor Market and supply and demand as he's drifting off to sleep.
When it comes to wages and housing, we have two choices. We can do nothing or we can do something. We're already doing nothing and look at the result. If we continue to do nothing, what makes anyone think things are going to get better?
I think if things continue as they are, something will explode one day and it won't be a pretty explosion. What's sad is, it doesn't have to happen. And worse, it won't be just the poor who are affected. A rising tide doesn't raise all boats, but a sinking tide certainly does lower all boats. If things go south in a big way in the US, it won't be just the poor who will suffer again. It will be everybody.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YourWakeUpCall
Nope. Never has been. The expectation that minimum wage is a living wage is a relatively new phenomena - and unrealistic.
You mean new phenomena as in 1933? Because it was supposed to be a living wage then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fred44
When was minimum wage ever enough to afford a 2 bedroom place? Never. I've been on this planet for 5 decades, and minimum wage was always for entry level jobs for teenagers, not adults with families. If minimum wage is not enough, get educated and find a real job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aslowdodge
I've been around a bit longer than you and minimum wage has always been for teens working part time for a little extra spending money while going to school. Then they moved on. They were unskilled and part time and paid as such.
Minimum wage is called that, not basic living needs wage.
More people who have no idea of the history behind minimum wage.
No wonder Americans can't compete with the rest of the world, if they're this ignorant of their own history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm1982
Credit issues due to their poor choices with credit . Credit can be fixed.
Not after 2008. There are plenty of people who lost jobs and houses through no fault of their own. Some of them are still trying to get back to where they were.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
No one who is only qualified to make minimum wage has any business buying a house. Sorry, but that's just the truth. That was part of the whole housing crisis a few years ago - loans were extended to people who should never have been approved for a loan of that size.
Whew - that was stressful but it's behind all of us now.
But I hope you don't forget, a lot of people who didn't take out subprime loans were affected as well. As I said, a sinking tide will lower all boats. Do you have any idea how many jobs were lost in the meltdown?
And what makes you think it's behind us now? That was just the prelude. What's coming next will probably be much worse.
Last edited by rodentraiser; 06-18-2018 at 01:11 AM..
Lets focus on just one of the things you don't understand for the moment.
Quote:
...at one time we could live on minimum wage and that was within my lifetime
A) I don't believe that was ever correct even with a sliding scale of definitions for "live on"
(and I was there for most of those days as well)
B) To the degree that it could have ever been interpreted as something close to correct...
those MW people then went on to produce another 30-40Million people similar to themselves:
without any useful skills to make them worth more or even anything at all as an employee...
and then implanted the idea in their inadequate progeny that they could 'live on' the same way.
So... while the first 3-4Million of the inadequate might be able to squeeze in around the edges
it's simply never going to be able to work for the other 27-37Million inadequate you advocate for.
Last edited by MrRational; 06-18-2018 at 04:41 AM..
Being that the renters need proof of 3x the amount of rent that means they make at least 36k a year, well over minimum wage.
I'm saying that working any extra job even at minimum wage would be worth it to save and buy a house rather than pay $1,000 a month a month forever.
Working a 2nd job at 7.25 an hour at 25 hours a week, it would take 3 or 4 years to get that $30 k
After that they don't have to pay $1,000 a month. Let's say after taxes and expenses they now save 600 a month not paying rent. In 4 years they have recouped the cost of buying a house.
There are also programs that help low income people buy a house.
Oh, and don't tell me I've never worked for minimum wage.
You don't know me.
I have worked for minimum wage, $1.85 an hour. I haven't done that since doing it part time while in school.
You see I didn't plan on living my life trying to live on minimum wage forever. I went to school to increase my skill set so I could earn more than minimum wage. No one I knew working for minimum wage ever expected to live off of it.
Even after that I worked extra while some of my friends partied on weekends so I could buy real estate while they did not.
So as I've said on this thread, it's all about doing what is needed to get ahead. Some sacrifices now to have a better future.
No one said it would be easy. Nothing is guaranteed in life. Sounds like you've pretty much resigned yourself to your fate in life and don't feel it's worth the extra effort for a little more security in life.
Required income-to-rent ratios are actually all over the map and many (usually smaller) landlords don't even use them. Which is a good thing because tens of millions of renters spend 40% or more of their income on rent and would never qualify under common ratios of 3x or 4x rent.
Personal experience. One minimum wage job is $1000 a month. That is what you need just to pay rent in most places. The second minimum wage job, is for all the other expenses. Electric, water, car expenses, etc. The third 0.5 minimum wage job is for discretionary spending. If you don't spend any money on anything else, you could save that money. But you would have to work 100 hours a week for at least one full year, without spending even one cent on yourself, to be able to afford a down payment on the crappiest possible house. But to even do that you would have to hope that you never get sick, or have any other unexpected expenses, such as a car repair, because that could easily set you back another year. People who think that that is possible, have obviously never done it. The reality is that you will get sick, you will have unexpected expenses, you will get your hours cut at some point, and those problems will wipe out all of your savings and you will have to keep starting over, forever.
if 2% of people are content working for minimum wage, thats fine with me. If they want more, learn to do something thats worth more.
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