What do you think should be done to fix America's economy? (bankrupt, collection)
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We have to start, first, by redefining "middle class" to something that we can sustain on a large scale. If a middle-class "living wage" is expected to support ownership of enormous homes, multiple fuel-gobbling vehicles per family, a plasma TV in every room, cell phones for each grade-school kid, and a college education for every kid no matter how academically inept he/she might be, well, then we won't get there--there simply isn't enough to go around when the monopoly money created through excessive leverage disappears.
I grew up lower middle class...our family of five lived in a ~1200 sq ft house, with one used car, with dining out reserved for special occasions, and I worked my own way through college. A modern man in my father's place puts his family into a 3,000 sq ft house, has two late-model cars, takes the family out to dinner 3-4 nights a week, pays for his kids to go to college to earn a degreee that will never directly enable them earn them a living--and he does it all on borrowed money he may never be able to repay. That's the "middle crash" not the middle-class, and we've inflated our expectations to the point where we believe that high-school dropout factory assembly-line workers should be able to do all this on a "living wage."
One of the best posts I've read in some time! Thanks Bob!
There's a difference between being realistic and being fatalistic. There's also a difference between being optimistic and being stupid. When one says things will be better but has no plan he's is stupid. When one says things will never change he's is also being stupid. In fact both science and nature are proof positive that change is inevitable.
As for ideology I'm not sure where that fits into anything. But it's hard for me to believe you've been very prosperous by believing that nothing could ever be fixed, improved or changed though.
For me, right now there are a lot better and more available opportunities than there was 3 years ago. I can buy equipment and tools cheaper, for example. Because people can't or don't want to finance the development of new offices and factories they are spending money to fix their existing buildings. The stock market at some point is likely to get overheated enough and too far ahead of itself that opportunities will exist there to make goobs of money instead of just grinding out smallish gains.
But, no matter what, I'm willing to say without reservation that things will be better at some point in the future. I said last spring that things would be better in 2 years. That looks like a layup now. But will things be better in 2 years from today? I'm not so sure. 5 years? most likely. 10 years no doubt. All those could be wrong for sure, but the idea that things will never, ever better? Thats dumb.
Well, I hope you're right,IMHO ,however in 10 years the dollar will be less than 10 cents v. the Euro BEFORE adjustment for heavy/hyper inflation.
Things will be better somewhere all right, but not here.
I've dug around and done my reading and IMHO the euro is build on sand.
OK-change it to whatever you think the next reserve currency will be.
My point is that someone stating they can can buy tools cheap at this moment as an element of macro analysis-
outweighing 50 trillion in debt and obligations and the entire world wanting to drop the dollar as the defacto reserve cuurency, is an example of the mass stupid belief in american exceptionalism, AKA don't worry be happy economics, that ensures our downfall.
OK-change it to whatever you think the next reserve currency will be.
My point is that someone stating they can can buy tools cheap at this moment as an element of macro analysis-
outweighing 50 trillion in debt and obligations and the entire world wanting to drop the dollar as the defacto reserve cuurency, is an example of the mass stupid belief in american exceptionalism, AKA don't worry be happy economics, that ensures our downfall.
The entire world wants to drop the dollar? Really? The entire world? Can you name one major player who has done this?
People want a lot of stuff. Thats doesn't mean squat. You seem to be easily alarmed. Perhaps if you better understood the issue you would see how foolish this idea really is. You could actually make a much better case for the "entire" world coming in and supporting the dollar at some point.
As for the tools, apparently you're too stupid and tied to your negative "the world is ending" bs to get the point that just because your world is effed up or even if the "macro" world is effed up it doesn't mean everyones is. It's your choice really.
One things for sure. You won't be part of any solution. Hopefully though there enough people like me to save you and your family from yourself.
The entire world wants to drop the dollar? Really? The entire world? Can you name one major player who has done this?
People want a lot of stuff. Thats doesn't mean squat. You seem to be easily alarmed. Perhaps if you better understood the issue you would see how foolish this idea really is. You could actually make a much better case for the "entire" world coming in and supporting the dollar at some point.
As for the tools, apparently you're too stupid and tied to your negative "the world is ending" bs to get the point that just because your world is effed up or even if the "macro" world is effed up it doesn't mean everyones is. It's your choice really.
One things for sure. You won't be part of any solution. Hopefully though there enough people like me to save you and your family from yourself.
Nah, that has nothing to do with macroeconomics, that's plain class warfare.
Of course "not everybody is hurting right now". Everybody knows this. Remember, it takes poor people to have rich people in a capital monopoly economy. That's not good, bad or indifferent, just mathematically factual. The difference resides in attempting to adjudicate the "have's" condition as the MEDIAN condition. That's class warfare. Likewise, it is natural for the "haves" to get defensive about being called out on their optimism-biased extrapolations of median outcomes, mainly because it is not in their working construct to be able to empathize, much less sympathize, with the "have nots". It is simply outside of their working constructs to understand. We fear what we don't understand, some manifest that lack of understanding with anger, some with dismissal. It is the same manifestation really.
As to the argument that it is your choice to be successful as a generality, I point you to google "positive illusions", a psychologically documented behavior, under which optimism-bias is classified under. The gem posted above about "choice" is actually textbook "mastery perceptions", found a lot among these threads actually. To each their own of course, but go sail a boat with the televangelist "you are not yet rich 'cause you haven't prayed [worked] hard enough" dismissive mantra. Reminds me of my boomer mother and her constant insinuation I was somehow purposely foregoing that mythical six figure income job that was waiting for me after college, in the clear absence of specific details as to what job that actually was and where it was located. Me and my lower-middle-class income; that choice of mine for self-imposed hardship and the lazyness and moral bankruptcy that it must be rooted on, it gets me every time...if I could just choose different *thinks happy thoughts really hard* ....
Real currency is based on physical resources, not debt-supported paper. Whether you hoard nickels, gold, silver, copper, platinum, etc it has real value. Fiat money (dollard, Euros, pounds, renmimbi, etc) has value only if the government enforcing it has credibility. I see a trend away from fiat to gold. Gold is real money, always has been. Personally I prefer silver and copper because those materials can be used for many industrial uses. What idiot would prefer several hundred Euros or over a thousand dollars instead of gold bullion? Saving fiat money is just plain stupid in today's inflationary fiat scheme.
Real currency is based on physical resources, not debt-supported paper. Whether you hoard nickels, gold, silver, copper, platinum, etc it has real value. Fiat money (dollard, Euros, pounds, renmimbi, etc) has value only if the government enforcing it has credibility. I see a trend away from fiat to gold. Gold is real money, always has been. Personally I prefer silver and copper because those materials can be used for many industrial uses. What idiot would prefer several hundred Euros or over a thousand dollars instead of gold bullion? Saving fiat money is just plain stupid in today's inflationary fiat scheme.
The problem with hoarding gold right now is that you're paying $1100+ an ounce for something that only costs $300-500 to get out of the ground. In the long term that sort of imbalance won't be sustainable.
The problem with hoarding gold right now is that you're paying $1100+ an ounce for something that only costs $300-500 to get out of the ground. In the long term that sort of imbalance won't be sustainable.
Not a problem when hyperinflation reduces today's dollar to 10 cents today's value.
Me and my lower-middle-class income; that choice of mine for self-imposed hardship and the lazyness and moral bankruptcy that it must be rooted on, it gets me every time...if I could just choose different *thinks happy thoughts really hard* ....
Do you care to highlight what you've tried to do to increase you income and financial health? You know above and beyond complaining about boomers, etc on the internet. Just want to make sure this is just not an example of the psychological effect "Making a bunch of excuses for my failures".
The US is not really a meritocracy, there are plenty of people with wealth, in management positions, etc that are complete idiots. Yet, nothing stops a young broke kid from starting a business and trying to make money.
Last edited by user_id; 11-17-2009 at 07:46 PM..
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