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^^You're really bringing up a lot of issues, sort of like the saying about throwing the spaghetti to see what sticks. Anyway, regarding the college issue, here is a convo from another thread about education, over on P&OC:
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Originally Posted by my54ford
Back in my day, you got choices of wood shop, engine shop, welding, electrical shop right in Highschool....Back then the Teachers didn't tell you if don't go to college you'll end up a liveing under the overpass....
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Originally Posted by Katiana
Maybe not, but their parents often did. I went to high school in a blue collar mill town outside of Pittsburgh. You may have heard of our probably most famous graduate, Joe Namath. I was reading a biography of him once, and there was a passage about how his father took him to the mill, showed him around and said, (paraphrasing as I don't have the book here), "You don't want this kind of life". Now back then, some of the mill workers made as much $ as my father did as an engineer for US Steel. Still, it was hard, physical labor with little job satisfaction.
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Originally Posted by HappyTexan
True. And many of those classes sent the students out to local business to get some real hands on experience which gave them a better shot at a job right out of HS.
LOL! In my hometown, you might get to be a cashier at a "Five and Dime", nothing more. Of course, everyone wants a career as a cashier for GC Murphy's or FW Woolworths. For the younguns here, the equivalent is K-Mart or Walmart.
^^You're really bringing up a lot of issues, sort of like the saying about throwing the spaghetti to see what sticks. Anyway, regarding the college issue, here is a convo from another thread about education, over on P&OC:
I wasn't the point I was making is somewhat tied into it. Schooling in particualar high school is not preparing people for the real world whether it is consumer economics, or skill courses. Instead we worry about how our graduates do in math and science. Don't get me wrong, these are important but maybe in ways we over-emphasize these fields. We rather teach them this than what it takes to be successful.
One thing I laugh at is the hypocrisy in the individual snowflake logic. Millennials all had teachers that talked about them being individuals. While doing that, they don't work WITH us to study. If we can't get their method we are wrong. I had one math teacher who wanted me to goto her for extra help on day 1 when I just asked my brother to help with dividing fractions because he was there with me at home. I just needed help on one maybe two problems because I forgot one thing for a second.
I do think we need to change things. At 10th grade we should start working with students to figure out an idea for their future (not exactly a set in stone future) by looking at a career week program along with the student's skill-set. That way in 11th grade when you finish up the standardized tests, you have flexibility to prepare you for 12th grade and the programs for that. Granted, you can't start this now with the lessened budgets but I don't see why this idea wouldn't work.
FYI, I disagree with shoving people into programs without their feedback. I look at this way, I hate gore, I would not make a good doctor so why do you think I would. I nearly puke anytime I watch CSI with the point of impact reviews they do sometimes.
Not less and less education. More education that suits the student as an individual.
Overloading brains (hands and backs) of individuals (especially children) with more and more "education" and professional labeling requirements under penalty of joblessness and starvation don't suit free human beings, period. It suits indentured robot zombies, human rats on a treadmill.
Some countries are more "successful" than others in pursuing current education paradigm to its logical absurd end.
South Koreans attend school 220 days per year, almost two months more than the 180 days of Americans. (The Japanese enroll an astonishing 243 days per annum;
High schoolers, and even middle schoolers, in South Korea are often engaged in scholastics until midnight or 2 a.m. After taking classes in up to 11 subjects, they attend private academies called "hagwons" where they obtain supplemental learning. The bottom line? Most South Korean children spend 13 hours a day or more with their bottoms glued to a chair.
How many more hours/day shall we terrorize children with education?
BTW, absurd of the graduate "education" is even more pronounced in Korea. Poor Korean wretches "educate" themselves to death literally, they are taking new and new courses, rake in degrees and certifications, strive for perfect GPA to qualify for jobs (that never materialize) well into their 30s and early 40s. 40 (FORTY) miserable years of cramming garbage under your skull, in order to qualify for a job (that is not there), in order to live another day. What a bright future "educators" hold for us all.
So you think it's OK for kids not to attend any school, ever? Autos have gotten more and more complicated. The mechanic needs to know about computers, and many other things. Think s/he could do that if s/he'd never gone to school at all? Your plumber, electrician, carpenter and the guy who mud jacked your sidewalk needed more than zero years of education to get where they are today. I previously posted educational requirements for some of these occupations; in the past I've posted the requirements for an electrician,which are as rigorous and lengthy as college.
Exactly. As I said, posters on here are acting like vo-tech jobs require no education, skills, intelligence, and talent. One of my acquaintances from ended up becoming an electrician after high school, he was actually smart and definitely not your "can't do high school" type (I actually think he did better on the SAT then me lol). I work in medical research, but I sure as heck can't fix broken circuits, replace a car battery, or do dramatic makeup art. To me if you really can't pass basic high school courses, then I don't see how you can become a gifted tradesman either.
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Originally Posted by Octa
I agree. People on here can keep saying that they don't think it's about intelligence, but their post reveal the opposite because that's the only reason they can think a student not be "cut out" for something.
Right on. I don't see how these posters can just exclude the fact that personal and social factors can affect a student's a performance. If I was a teacher and saw that one of my student's was failing, the first thing that would come to my mind would be- 1) getting them extra help and 2) whether they have personal or family problems, certainly not that they "can't do school."
Enough of this baderdash! MY district, and many others throughout Colorado, still offers vo-tech. The student does get a HS diploma along with whatever certifcations they earn. And where is the evidence that "all" students are being encouraged to attend college? I keep hearing that over and over, like it's Gospel, but I see no evidence of it.
So you think it's OK for kids not to attend any school, ever? Autos have gotten more and more complicated. The mechanic needs to know about computers, and many other things. Think s/he could do that if s/he'd never gone to school at all? Your plumber, electrician, carpenter and the guy who mud jacked your sidewalk needed more than zero years of education to get where they are today. I previously posted educational requirements for some of these occupations; in the past I've posted the requirements for an electrician,which are as rigorous and lengthy as college.
You've said many times over that you were a late bloomer yourself. There are a lot of them out there. I've read that males are more likely to "wake up" in the later high school grades. Your tenth grade slackers may be motivated students by senior year.
Most states have come up with some sort of school finance equity.
No one here said that never attending school was a good idea. Once it has been established that a particular student isn't thriving in school, it's time to find something else for them.
A mechanic needs to know how to USE a computer. That is a skill you can learn on the job as many have. A computer is a tool. You don't need to go to school to learn how to use one. They're actually pretty user friendly these days.
I agree. People on here can keep saying that they don't think it's about intelligence, but their post reveal the opposite because that's the only reason they can think a student not be "cut out" for something.
No one here said that never attending school was a good idea. Once it has been established that a particular student isn't thriving in school, it's time to find something else for them.
A mechanic needs to know how to USE a computer. That is a skill you can learn on the job as many have. A computer is a tool. You don't need to go to school to learn how to use one. They're actually pretty user friendly these days.
Oh, I don't know about that first sentence. If Sen. Dipstick wants to abolish compulsory education, isn't he saying that?
You have to know how to read, and spell reasonably well to use a computer. You have to know how to type. You have to have some idea of how computer programs work in general. The car has a computer in it, for God's sake. You have to know how to fix it! As for user friendly, some programs are better than others. But. . . you still have to know what to do if you hit the wrong key. I can't believe this, actually!
I am seriously incredulous that anyone would say you don't have to go to school to learn this stuff. Since you like emoticoms so much, here's one for you:
Oh, I don't know about that first sentence. If Sen. Dipstick wants to abolish compulsory education, isn't he saying that?
You have to know how to read, and spell reasonably well to use a computer. You have to know how to type. You have to have some idea of how computer programs work in general. The car has a computer in it, for God's sake. You have to know how to fix it! As for user friendly, some programs are better than others. But. . . you still have to know what to do if you hit the wrong key. I can't believe this, actually!
I am seriously incredulous that anyone would say you don't have to go to school to learn this stuff. Since you like emoticoms so much, here's one for you:
Quit putting words in my mouth. I never said you don't go to school to learn stuff. Computers are tools and you don't need to go to school to learn to use one anymore. Back when I first went into engineering you did because you did your own programming. Now you buy a program that someone else wrote and just use it. Learning to use a program can be done on the job.
IMO, one of the problems with education today is that people think we need to teach computers when we don't. That's actually a waste of time. They're a tool like a calculator. Just as you don't need a class on calculator use, you don't need one on computer use either.
One thing my dd's charter school did right was give every student a lap top and then DID NOT teach them how to use it. They just expected them to use it. The kids figured the programs out and taught each other. My dd was showing me how to do things in Powerpoint when she was in 5th grade WITHOUT ever taking a class in Powerpoint. What she was told to do was make presentations. The kids wanted to be the ones who figured out something first so they could tell their friends.
Yes, a mechanic is expected to use a computer and he will learn to use one on the job as he uses one now and in the future when programs change. In case you haven't noticed, the more advanced computer programs get the LESS the user needs to know about computers. Most programs are point and click these days. It's just a matter of getting used to them.
Back when I graduated from engineering school, I wrote my own programs. I don't need to anymore. There are people who write programs for a living now. All I have to do is figure out how to use the program just like I figured out my calculator. You don't need a computer education to be a computer user anymore. I have a brother who is a mechanic and has zero computer education yet he uses them every single day. Computers are tools to most people.
You figure out what to do when you hit a wrong key when you hit a wrong key. You don't need a class for that.
Oh, I don't know about that first sentence. If Sen. Dipstick wants to abolish compulsory education, isn't he saying that?
You have to know how to read, and spell reasonably well to use a computer.
You don't have to read and spell reasonably to use a computer. Just look at me.
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You have to know how to type.
I (and many others) learned that on my own.
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You have to have some idea of how computer programs work in general.
Do you have an idea? Most people don't.
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The car has a computer in it, for God's sake. You have to know how to fix it!
The days of fixing your own car (not speaking of computers) are almost gone because costs of the tools required exceed cost of a car + few people have time for that. Nobody fixes car computers, they re-program computers using a specialized software (a service technician have no clue about), if simple re-programming doesn't work they throw entire thing out.
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I am seriously incredulous that anyone would say you don't have to go to school to learn this stuff. Since you like emoticoms so much, here's one for you:
Modern schooling kills learning, it's just a matter of fact. 12 years of abuse and 14% of native born Americans are 100% illiterate, 30%+ can barely read. Leaving those kids alone couldn't possibly be worse from the education standpoint.
Mass schooling is not for education though, it's there to form conditioned reflexes that would last a life time.
You don't have to read and spell to use a computer. Just look at me.
I (and many others) learned that on my own.
...
The days of fixing your own car (not speaking of computers) are almost gone because costs of the tools required exceed cost of a car + few people have time for that. Nobody fixes car computers, they re-program computers using a specialized software (a service technician have no clue about), if simple re-programming doesn't work they throw entire thing out.
...
.
My dd's were never taught to type yet both type quite well. Why? Because typing well made life easier for them so they learned it on their own. Typing no longer needs to be taught in school because speed no longer matters and kids figure it out on their own because it makes their life easier. Kids learn any software or to use hardware (like a keyboard) the same way they learn a new computer game with a novel joystick. By using it. The more they use it, the better they get at using it. We really don't need computer classes. We just need to incorporate computer use in the classrooms we have.
Most people have no clue how computer programs work. They just use them the same way they use a calculator or any other tool. They figure out which buttons to push to make what they want to happen happen. There once was a time when you needed to know how to program to use a computer but those days are gone.
Yup. The technician uses a program to fix a problem or replaces the module. If modules are recycled, that is done when they are returned to the manufacturer. The technician/mechanic does not need to know how to reprogram the module. Just how to run the software.
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Once it has been established that a particular student isn't thriving in school, it's time to find something else for them. 
My dd's were never taught to type yet both type quite well. Why? Because typing well made life easier for them so they learned it on their own. Typing no longer needs to be taught in school because speed no longer matters and kids figure it out on their own because it makes their life easier. Kids learn any software or to use hardware (like a keyboard) the same way they learn a new computer game with a novel joystick. By using it. The more they use it, the better they get at using it. We really don't need computer classes. We just need to incorporate computer use in the classrooms we have. 
