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If it is more litigious now, it might be good to ask why. As someone who was falsely accused and punished for "letting X cheat off my paper" while kids I knew cheated everyday got away with it, I have very little trust in the ability of teachers to detect cheating.
A favorite tactic of Miss I (2nd grade) was if a boy scored higher than the girls in the class was to punish the boys because "they must have cheated."
Very much my experience too in 2nd grade. As I've posted in the past, my 2nd grade teacher hated boys. Very frequently, she would keep all of the boys inside during recess if even 1 boy misbehaved during the day. Never the girls. While I understand (but not agree) that she wanted to teach us a life lesson about life not being fair, what incentive was there for individual boys to ever behave in her class, knowing that you'd be punished anyway?
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There is a reason why so many parents today believe their kids over the teacher and that is because we experienced it ourselves as kids and vowed not to let it happen to ours.
Exactly! In the past, parents sided with the teacher, even when the student was very obviously right and the teacher was very obviously wrong. Since we don't want our children to have to deal with the injustices that we dealt with, the pendulum has swung the other direction, with many parents always siding with the children. Teachers who complain about parents siding with students need to realize that it's the result of decades of teachers being unfair, abusing their power, and parents blindly siding with the teacher. Of course, we need the pendulum to swing somewhere in the middle, but that rarely seems to happen.
Take a deep breath. Remember.. this is the 6th grade. Her transcript doesn't matter. The stakes are not as high as it would be if this was 10th grade (or even 7th... magnet high schools tend to look at 7th and 8th grade transcripts, not 6th).
Then go talk to the teacher. Your daughter may be guilty.
In a good middle school 6th grade is when they start trying to teach these lessons to kids while the stakes are relatively low, as someone else said upthread. Not because teachers are mean. The whole zero thing may be coming from that mindset. Just hear what the teacher has to say.
Again, it depends on the district. In my school district, 6th grade was very high stakes, since it determined who was in honors classes. It was nearly impossible to get into honors and/or AP classes in high school if you weren't in honors classes in 7th grade, based on your grades from 6th grade.
How do you know the teacher rushed in? How do you know she didn't look at the final test answers? Going over the teacher's head to the principal is a bad idea. The OP should talk to the teacher first. And yeah, the principal's inclination is going to be to support the teacher. Would you like to work for someone who did differently?
Valid questions so may I kindly respond.
Nope, Went via way of speaking directly with a Teacher....It was just a side track to the Principals office where I ( as a parent) was able to voice the concern and LET HIM Do his job by investigating the concern.
Because that's HOW a person can be assured that the School is fully informed and that the teacher doesn't just get the last say.....
I actually DO work for a Business where the CONSUMER will ALWAYS take precedence over a staff member.
its How business works.
We disagree and I may well be wrong on the teacher doing due diligence....and for that I would concede.
My daughter just got detention today and a "0" because some other girl was trying to copy off her. The teacher accused my daughter of intentional trying to help her. The thing is, my daughter doesn't even know the name of the girl, etc. My daughter is just starting middle school and is taking math at the next grade level (she's probably the youngest person taking 7th-grade math out of ~350-400 students). She's small, and will obviously stick out. Anybody have any suggestions on what to do? Obviously, the age factor, etc. will potentially be problematic in the future.
In my experience, it is rare that the person that has the 'good' exam doesn't know when someone else is cheating off them. It is too easy to cover your exam so no one else can see it. It is almost hard to keep it open so others can see off it.
I'm certainly not saying your daughter was in on this but I doubt seriously that she was clueless.
3. Can I see the tests I want to see the grades and if they missed the same questions.
4. on and on until she either proves it or looks like a fool.
Let me pretend to be the teacher for you:
1. How do you know my daughter cheated?
Your daughter didn't cheat, she helped another student cheat. I saw the other student making gestures at your daughter, then your daughter moved her hand that was covering part of the test, slid her paper nearer the other student, and I saw the other student look at her paper and begin quickly writing. After seeing this I continued watching both students and saw those or similar actions several times. Only then did I collect both tests.
2. What proof do you have?
I saw it.
3. Can I see the tests I want to see the grades and if they missed the same questions.
Federal laws do not allow me to even tell you the other student's name, let alone show you the tests. Even were that not true I still can't share that with you. You wouldn't want me to violate your daughter's privacy by discussing her or showing her work with another student's parent, and I wouldn't do it, I respect your child too much. I feel that way about every single on of my students and their parents.
If you don't believe your child's teacher and just assume she is in the wrong I don't know what to tell you other than you might want to think long and hard about the lessons you are teaching your child for the future. One day your child is most likely going to have a boss and how you treat that teacher is how your child is learning to treat a boss.
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Nope, Went via way of speaking directly with a Teacher....It was just a side track to the Principals office where I ( as a parent) was able to voice the concern and LET HIM Do his job by investigating the concern.
Because that's HOW a person can be assured that the School is fully informed and that the teacher doesn't just get the last say.....
I actually DO work for a Business where the CONSUMER will ALWAYS take precedence over a staff member.
its How business works.
We disagree and I may well be wrong on the teacher doing due diligence....and for that I would concede.
I don't know what you're saying "Nope" to.
"The Customer is Always Right" is a term I'm familiar with, but it's not always played out in reality. Many stores will not give you a refund or exchange without a receipt, for example, even if you say you bought the product at their store.
I didn't think it was necessary to say that if your conversation with the teacher didn't satisfy you, the next step would be the principal. Sort of like you ask your neighbor to cut off his branches that are hanging in your yard before you call the police on him.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 09-21-2017 at 12:04 PM..
Reason: thought of an example
"The Customer is Always Right" is a term I'm familiar with, but it's not always played out in reality. Many stores will not give you a refund or exchange without a receipt, for example, even if you say you bought the product at their store.
I didn't think it was necessary to say that if your conversation with the teacher didn't satisfy you, the next step would be the principal. Sort of like you ask your neighbor to cut off his branches that are hanging in your yard before you call the police on him.
Agreed.
Many people don't understand the phrase "The customer is always right". It doesn't mean that the customer is always right. It means that as a business, I want to keep this customer's business, so I will act as if they are right. Of course, there are limits.
Your daughter didn't cheat, she helped another student cheat. I saw the other student making gestures at your daughter, then your daughter moved her hand that was covering part of the test, slid her paper nearer the other student, and I saw the other student look at her paper and begin quickly writing. After seeing this I continued watching both students and saw those or similar actions several times. Only then did I collect both tests.
2. What proof do you have?
I saw it.
3. Can I see the tests I want to see the grades and if they missed the same questions.
Federal laws do not allow me to even tell you the other student's name, let alone show you the tests. Even were that not true I still can't share that with you. You wouldn't want me to violate your daughter's privacy by discussing her or showing her work with another student's parent, and I wouldn't do it, I respect your child too much. I feel that way about every single on of my students and their parents.
If you don't believe your child's teacher and just assume she is in the wrong I don't know what to tell you other than you might want to think long and hard about the lessons you are teaching your child for the future. One day your child is most likely going to have a boss and how you treat that teacher is how your child is learning to treat a boss.
I realize you are burdened by nonsensical rules, please don't prejudge what I wouldn't want. I raise my son to take accountability for all of his actions and that includes his test scores is you want to post his scores on the front door of the school and he is ashamed of the results he better study harder next time.
Can you answer this? Did they miss the same questions?
I realize you want me to take your word for this but I don't think you are sacrosanct or infallible; you do make mistakes right?
Son, don't humiliate yourself and give away your integrity; did you or did you not knowingly allow this kid to copy off of you? N/Y assuming N
Well Mr. educator it seems there are only three possibilities.
My son is a liar.
You are a liar.
You are in error.
Regardless of which is true I don't have any faith that you are capable of being object towards my son after this incident. Therefore we will need to move to a different teacher.
I would appreciate it if you could proctor my son a different version of the test at your convenience. Y/N
assuming N
You see the reality is my son doesn't know this other student and has a documented Stanford Benet V IQ of 138. He doesn't have to cheat to pass your test and he there is no logical reason why he would go against every value our family holds dear and sacrifice his integrity for a stranger.
Assuming the answer is still N
Well I have tried to be reasonable with you Mr. Educator but for some reason you want to see how far we can push this. I can only assume you aren't a fool and already have your boss the principal in your back pocket. Therefore I will be seeing the superintendent tomorrow; I will mention other concerns as to your teaching (throw dirt here). Ultimately I guess my lawyer Mr. Straihorn will have to handle it after that as I really don't have the time to dedicate to this right now. Should you reconsider you have my email. I strongly caution you not to take retaliatory action against my son based on our differences.
I realize you are burdened by nonsensical rules, please don't prejudge what I wouldn't want. I raise my son to take accountability for all of his actions and that includes his test scores is you want to post his scores on the front door of the school and he is ashamed of the results he better study harder next time.
Can you answer this? Did they miss the same questions?
I realize you want me to take your word for this but I don't think you are sacrosanct or infallible; you do make mistakes right?
Son, don't humiliate yourself and give away your integrity; did you or did you not knowingly allow this kid to copy off of you? N/Y assuming N
Well Mr. educator it seems there are only three possibilities.
My son is a liar.
You are a liar.
You are in error.
Regardless of which is true I don't have any faith that you are capable of being object towards my son after this incident. Therefore we will need to move to a different teacher.
I would appreciate it if you could proctor my son a different version of the test at your convenience. Y/N
assuming N
You see the reality is my son doesn't know this other student and has a documented Stanford Benet V IQ of 138. He doesn't have to cheat to pass your test and he there is no logical reason why he would go against every value our family holds dear and sacrifice his integrity for a stranger.
Assuming the answer is still N
Well I have tried to be reasonable with you Mr. Educator but for some reason you want to see how far we can push this. I can only assume you aren't a fool and already have your boss the principal in your back pocket. Therefore I will be seeing the superintendent tomorrow; I will mention other concerns as to your teaching (throw dirt here). Ultimately I guess my lawyer Mr. Straihorn will have to handle it after that as I really don't have the time to dedicate to this right now. Should you reconsider you have my email. I strongly caution you not to take retaliatory action against my son based on our differences.
This looks like a very good template to base the conservation on. I have already emailed the teacher asking for her written account of what happened, but my daughter definitely wants to move forward by trying to get switched into another class.
Very sorry to hear that this happened to your daughter. I've posted in the past (here and on other forums) that I was very frequently falsely accused of things when I was in school. The worst parts of being falsely accused are that you are completely powerless, nobody ever believes that you are innocent, and claiming innocence was often interpreted as insubordination. I am glad that you are sticking up for your daughter. Unfortunately, my parents always sided with the teacher and never helped me, even though I was frequently put in positions that somebody my then age was not equipped to handle.
I agree with the posters who suggest to start with the teacher, before escalating it to the principal. Unfortunately, principals almost always side with teachers.
About people who say that the stakes are low in 6th grade: that might depend on the district. When I was in middle school, 6th grade determined who was in honors classes the following year, which would de facto determine who was in honors and AP classes in high school. So the stakes were extremely high in 6th grade. On the other hand, middle school detention had no long term effect.
I agree with the posters who say to try to switch teachers if at all possible. Unfortunately, when a student (whether fairly or not) makes a bad impression on a teacher early on, there is absolutely nothing that the student can do to change the teacher's impression. Hopefully the 0 won't carry over to whatever teacher she transfers into.
If your district was like mine (grades in 6th grade were high stakes, detention was not high stakes), maybe you can make an agreement that your daughter will serve the detention, but if she has no further incidents for the rest of the semester, that the 0 will be expunged from her record. Perhaps later on, when no longer in the heat of the moment, the teacher will view things in a more rational matter. Perhaps in accepting the detention, you can make an attempt at speaking the teacher's language (even though you don't agree), by saying something like "You understand and accept that life isn't fair". Sometimes speaking somebody else's language is the best way to reason with them.
What I think is going on here is that many teachers dislike high achieving students who are ahead of the curriculum. That was a problem for myself when I was in a school, and I see it being a problem for your daughter. Since your daughter is a grade ahead of the other students and is noticeably smaller and younger than the other students, that makes things even tougher for her. I know that many posters will say that what I am posting is not true. But unless you were a high achieving student who experienced this, such as myself or your daughter, it is difficult to relate to. And, I'm not saying that all teachers are unfair to high achieving students, just some of them. So a teacher who posts that he/she is fair to high achieving students does nothing to help myself or your daughter, and does nothing to negate the experiences that I had and your daughter is having.
I really hope things work out for you. If you want, search my past posting history to read about some of my experiences, or, if you want, I can show you where some of them are posted (some are posted in other forums). It is so unfortunate how many teachers are some of the worst bullies in the world. Good luck.
Amen brother it happened to me and it happened to my son even more who was two grades ahead. My parents never supported me; I made damm sure I never left my son in the same situation.
My son was in a gifted school in fourth grade; in the three previous years that we were there no student had ever made the A honor roll. My son was on the verge of making the A honor roll in the fourth grade when I started noticing testing discrepancies. As an example there if there was a 20 question test and my son missed two questions the teacher would give him an 85% instead of 90. I would point it out and she would say oh I made a mistake an fix it. When that didn't work I noticed she went back into the grade book and changed assignment grades. I kept a copy of all his work and when I pointed it out she said she had reviewed old assignments and corrected the grades. She only did this on subjective assignments like writing where she could grade a paper however she wanted. As soon as she managed to give him one B for a quarter grade she was happy and stopped doing it.
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