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All good points and things I'd thought of myself. Ron Paul's as-yet-unnamed movement is not currently in position to win the White House. It is not in position to win much at all. But it's a well established and highly motivated movement. Play things smart and we either gradually take over the GOP or make the GOP extinct we take its place.
My single greatest worry for the survival of the movement has long been that Ron Paul supporters manage to sabotage the GOP nominee so badly that Obama wins. Whether that is Ron Paul running Independent and siphoning off enough votes to guarantee re-election for Obama or just being a huge distraction, it's all the same. If Obama wins this year and Ron Paul's supporters played a major role in helping him win, it threatens to doom the entire movement. Ross Perot was right about many things, but because the GOP was able to blame the loss of the 1992 election on him, his supporters and movement dwindled down to practically nothing where it is today.
I don't blame any Ron Paul supporter for sitting this one out. America had a chance to actually confront the root problems that are making such a mess of things and the American people instead voted to continue burying our collective heads in the sand. I'm going to vote for Mitt Romney -- not because he is so wonderful, but because Barack Obama is beyond terrible. America was already pointed toward the edge of the cliff. Then Mr O jumps in the driver's seat and floors it. I hate the fact that I'm left to choose the lesser of two evils once again but our Maniac in Chief must be stopped. This does not change my mind one bit though. Romney gets my vote because he can't possibly do worse than Obama and we need to at least slow the bleeding ASAP.
, "You CAN'T change the Regime from the inside, any more than you can change the Mafia from the inside!" .
Well if you believe that "you can't change the regime from the inside" then your only option is to start and build a new party,seperate from the Republicans.A large percentage of Paul supporters have no interest in being Republicans anyway...its a little hard to change a party that you aren't interested in being a member of in the first place.
Of course both parties have changed from the inside over the years...so i'm sure it 'could' happen again,but not if most of the movement is only interested in the 'top of the ticket' and rails against almost the entire remainder of the party.Most of Ron Pauls ideas aren't even anything new but mostly recycled elements of the beliefs of Barry Goldwater,Bob Taft,etc. that were once popular among many republicans.
If you don't support the nominee of the party,you have no business being involved in the party.
Will you partisan hacks just shut up trying to teach us to "fall in line"? Just like how I love my country, but dislike the government, I can like the principles of the party (well, on paper, anyway), but dislike the nominee, because he doesn't follow the party principles. I am not going to roll over for whoever they tell me to roll over for. That's slavery. You are free to do it though, and this is exactly why we are in this rut.
Quote:
Originally Posted by noexcuseforignorance
Libertarian isn't a dirty word now. It's just that a lot of people, such as your average clueless Paul supporter, don't really know what libertarian means.
I will be very glad to debate you on the nuances of Libertarianism, or any of its subcategories, but I'll wager a bet right now that you don't have a clue, or have a misguided snapshot of it, obtained from DailyKos or Red State or somewhere such. If you want to try and teach me, bring it on, bozo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Wolves In Snow
Excellent post, moving pains. Very thoughtful, and you might be right...but, as Lew Rockwell said, "You CAN'T change the Regime from the inside, any more than you can change the Mafia from the inside!" And seeing how the sheeple act, seeing what the Republican Party pulled throughout these primaries...he's right. It's all b.s. Nobody wants freedom. People want flashy slogans, perfect hair, dazzling smiles and b.s. It's evident all over this board alone. People do not want freedom. They actually LAUGH or mock it...they call it crazy. So forget it. Forget it. Nothing will ever change because the majority is about as bright as the inside of a horse's ass.
I haven't cooled down yet. I'm having a very difficult time cooling down.
Understand that Lew Rockwell is an Anarchist, which means he rejects any form of government and all involvement in the political process. (And sadly, whoever listens to him and thinks he is right.) Now, this may be pleasing to his own psyche, to have avoided all contacts with a corrupt machine, but from a practical standpoint, it gains us nothing. A political machine runs this country. If you want to change the direction of the country, you better be cogs of the machine and swing the machine in a different direction than where it's currently going. Standing 10 miles away and ridiculing the process ensures that you are always relegated to doing the same mime, because you are not changing anything. You could educate yourself to the point where you could have debated Rothbard if he was alive, but if you don't get yourself involved in the process, what good is that knowledge?
My single greatest worry for the survival of the movement has long been that Ron Paul supporters manage to sabotage the GOP nominee so badly that Obama wins. Whether that is Ron Paul running Independent and siphoning off enough votes to guarantee re-election for Obama or just being a huge distraction, it's all the same. If Obama wins this year and Ron Paul's supporters played a major role in helping him win, it threatens to doom the entire movement. Ross Perot was right about many things, but because the GOP was able to blame the loss of the 1992 election on him, his supporters and movement dwindled down to practically nothing where it is today.
I don't blame any Ron Paul supporter for sitting this one out. America had a chance to actually confront the root problems that are making such a mess of things and the American people instead voted to continue burying our collective heads in the sand. I'm going to vote for Mitt Romney -- not because he is so wonderful, but because Barack Obama is beyond terrible. America was already pointed toward the edge of the cliff. Then Mr O jumps in the driver's seat and floors it. I hate the fact that I'm left to choose the lesser of two evils once again but our Maniac in Chief must be stopped. This does not change my mind one bit though. Romney gets my vote because he can't possibly do worse than Obama and we need to at least slow the bleeding ASAP.
You make the assumption that Romney is somehow better than Obama, but I am thoroughly convinced that there is NO difference between them. Again, this is on matters of key importance, or I am not really interested in evaluating cosmetic differences or social issues. Writing in Paul, as I have learned, is not possible in NC, so I am currently torn between voting for Gary Johnson or Obama. I am more ideologically similar to Johnson and have nothing in common with Obama, but I might vote for Obama, because of several strategic reasons. I have explained my strategy and reasoning to several RP supporters and they seem to agree. (Yes, I really hate Obama, but even more devastating than Obama winning, would be Romney winning.)
Understand that Lew Rockwell is an Anarchist, which means he rejects any form of government and all involvement in the political process. (And sadly, whoever listens to him and thinks he is right.) Now, this may be pleasing to his own psyche, to have avoided all contacts with a corrupt machine, but from a practical standpoint, it gains us nothing. A political machine runs this country. If you want to change the direction of the country, you better be cogs of the machine and swing the machine in a different direction than where it's currently going. Standing 10 miles away and ridiculing the process ensures that you are always relegated to doing the same mime, because you are not changing anything. You could educate yourself to the point where you could have debated Rothbard if he was alive, but if you don't get yourself involved in the process, what good is that knowledge?
Yes, I understand what he is, that doesn't change what he said and what I think about what he said. We can work our butts off to the bone and the fact remains, the majority LOVES to have someone tell them what to do. They don't want freedom...apparently it's too scary for them.
And just because I could not become a delegate doesn't mean I didn't do any work. I most certainly DID do a lot of work...phone calls, debates, going around and talking to people, oh yes, I did.
Look at what we are fighting though. We have people being falsely arrested, broken bones, lying, cheating, rule changing, on and on, and when we discuss those, instead of actually even keeping an open mind by non freedom supporters, we are called conspiracy theorists. It's not a GD conspiracy, that **** happened!
People don't want to believe it. People live in a little plastic bubble where they think they are safe because the government has told them that they are there to help, they will keep us all safe, and everything they do is for OUR safety. What a load of crap! But these minions believe it! How on earth do you fight against stupidity?
You make the assumption that Romney is somehow better than Obama, but I am thoroughly convinced that there is NO difference between them. Again, this is on matters of key importance, or I am not really interested in evaluating cosmetic differences or social issues. Writing in Paul, as I have learned, is not possible in NC, so I am currently torn between voting for Gary Johnson or Obama. I am more ideologically similar to Johnson and have nothing in common with Obama, but I might vote for Obama, because of several strategic reasons. I have explained my strategy and reasoning to several RP supporters and they seem to agree. (Yes, I really hate Obama, but even more devastating than Obama winning, would be Romney winning.)
Above all else, Obama seems to be a truly and deeply committed Keynesian economic believer. So as long as he is in office, he will borrow like crazy and spend like crazy because he is convinced that doing so is an effective way to jump-start the economy. We're going to hit $16 trillion in debt before the end of the year for sure. Put Mr Obama back in and we're probably looking at $22 trillion or worse before he's done.
I'm not at all sold that Romney will balance the budget, but I think he will at least try to move us in that direction. His nifty little phrase, "Am I willing to borrow the money from China for this?" is at least the beginning of rational thought. The biggest difference I'm seeing between the two on this issue: Obama seems like he could care less how much he borrows and spends. Democrats are lousy at cutting spending on pretty much anything.
I'm not crazy about either guy for foreign policy, but that is the one big issue where Romney looks worse to me. Other than that, I can't think of any good reason to favor Obama over Romney.
If I thought it would actually help the country, I'd vote for Gary Johnson or write in Ron Paul. I think we're both coming to the same impasse: Once again we're confronted with picking the lesser of two evils. If you pick Obama and I pick Romney, at least we agree that both were lousy choices.
You make the assumption that Romney is somehow better than Obama, but I am thoroughly convinced that there is NO difference between them. Again, this is on matters of key importance, or I am not really interested in evaluating cosmetic differences or social issues. Writing in Paul, as I have learned, is not possible in NC, so I am currently torn between voting for Gary Johnson or Obama. I am more ideologically similar to Johnson and have nothing in common with Obama, but I might vote for Obama, because of several strategic reasons. I have explained my strategy and reasoning to several RP supporters and they seem to agree. (Yes, I really hate Obama, but even more devastating than Obama winning, would be Romney winning.)
3 Wolves, I think being smarter about what part of the machine to target is important. As MP stated the cogs, can make a big diff. That said we have a very corrupt controlled system so you do have a point, however, bringing that out to the light of day "wakes up" more all the time. It is harder to steer and manipulate so many all the time in this age. The PTBs et al count on the cogs giving up and not being able to persevere.
I will say that we can make important choices everyday that have nothing to do with politics, but are aimed at becoming more self-sufficient and helping others to also do so. This helps empower individuals to have more control over their own lives and not be dependent on the current controlled structure.
I admit it isn't so easy for everybody since our financial system and economy is the backbone; the paradigm we have to operate within to a point, at least.
3 Wolves, I think being smarter about what part of the machine to target is important. As MP stated the cogs, can make a big diff. That said we have a very corrupt controlled system so you do have a point, however, bringing that out to the light of day "wakes up" more all the time. It is harder to steer and manipulate so many all the time in this age. The PTBs et al count on the cogs giving up and not being able to persevere.
I will say that we can make important choices everyday that have nothing to do with politics, but are aimed at becoming more self-sufficient and helping others to also do so. This helps empower individuals to have more control over their own lives and not be dependent on the current controlled structure.
I admit it isn't so easy for everybody since our financial system and economy is the backbone; the paradigm we have to operate within to a point, at least.
Talking about every day things:
32 oz of pop, no longer allowed. Some are ok with this.
Police in CO arresting innocents, 40 or more of them, to find a bank robber. Some are ok with this.
TSA. Some are ok with this.
NDAA. Some are ok with this.
Patriot Act. Some are ok with this.
Seriously...whenever I see someone "ok" with our rights being squashed like a bug under a giant government boot, I wonder, what's the point? We have talked and talked and talked and talked until our tongues bleed and we get called, "crazy". Freedom is "crazy".
As long as the media and banks control things, do you honestly believe a freedom movement will ever have a chance? People, in general, are stupid sheep. They actually believe this tripe on t.v. It's easier for others to do the thinking. They have to reserve that space to figure out how they are going to DVR "Real Housewives", "Snookie Specials" AND get to Wal Mart for their holiday clearance sale. That's just too much on their plate! Media tells them what is going on? Ok, that's good enough for them.
They will continue to shout down anyone who says, "No, seriously, listen for a minute", or stick their fingers in their ears and yell, "La, la, la, la, la, la, can't hear you, crazy person, la, la, la..."
Self sufficient? Yep. I agree with you. It's a goal of mine. And the rest of the sheepulation can hang themselves.
32 oz of pop, no longer allowed. Some are ok with this.
Police in CO arresting innocents, 40 or more of them, to find a bank robber. Some are ok with this.
TSA. Some are ok with this.
NDAA. Some are ok with this.
Patriot Act. Some are ok with this.
Seriously...whenever I see someone "ok" with our rights being squashed like a bug under a giant government boot, I wonder, what's the point? We have talked and talked and talked and talked until our tongues bleed and we get called, "crazy". Freedom is "crazy".
As long as the media and banks control things, do you honestly believe a freedom movement will ever have a chance? People, in general, are stupid sheep. They actually believe this tripe on t.v. It's easier for others to do the thinking. They have to reserve that space to figure out how they are going to DVR "Real Housewives", "Snookie Specials" AND get to Wal Mart for their holiday clearance sale. That's just too much on their plate! Media tells them what is going on? Ok, that's good enough for them.
They will continue to shout down anyone who says, "No, seriously, listen for a minute", or stick their fingers in their ears and yell, "La, la, la, la, la, la, can't hear you, crazy person, la, la, la..."
Self sufficient? Yep. I agree with you. It's a goal of mine. And the rest of the sheepulation can hang themselves.
I have to agree with being amazed at what people are willing to accept.
However, yes I think if enough people get mobilized and target what needs to be targeted with good strategies. "We the people" can make a difference.
The machines being used as leverage are the ways the PTBs do the damage they do. It really wouldn't take much. Looking to politics has definite limits, especially in our current system.
Rome did itself in, like other "Empires" so eventually things play out. Just need to have a "plan".
You do what you can do and just keep going.
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