Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I am not sure this is an integration issue to be honest.
In Germany, where Germans look down on the Bundeswehr (armed forces) as the kind of career available for people with no future, I would understand that foreigners (say, turks) would not join it and rather become doctors and lawyers.
France & the UK, maybe Italy aswell, are not only ex-colonial powers but also the dominant military powers of Europe (historically at least). They place great value on their military, and that is why a large part of non-whites join.(mind you I said non-white, not immigrants, as most non-whites in these countries are second or third generation already as opposed to immigrants in other EU countries which often are first gen...This makes a huge difference in the reasons for choosing your profession...).
Also as I hinted above...There is *different* kind of immigration and different history of non-whites in each EU country...which makes their place in each EU country a bit different than others.
For example you cannot compare the African Carribean community in the UK with the Turks in Germany. Different people, different reasons to be in Europe, different culture, etc.
Sorry to go on for so long...But it is an interesting topic
To conclude I would say...I really dont think this is an issue of integration...As militaries in Germany and other such countries are MORE THAN IN NEED of recruits...But an issue on the non-white community which (rightfully?) doesnt see as advantageous a career in the military/police, being in such professions for the sole sake of "patriotism" which possibly they dont feel very close to, even when Germans or other Europeans dont feel that feeling themselves very much
Very good an nuanced post. You are correct that the comparison between a Turk in Germany and a black Caribbean in the UK is not direct.
But can you address my grater point? I will concede that joining the Army in Germany may not be seen as high flying. In fact, in America--and I am a vet--the rural poor and urban poor comprise the bulk (but not all) of the enlisted ranks and the officer corp is is proportionally southern. That being said, I am glad I joined the USN.
Anyway, my point is the that the institutions of the European State are not as diverse as their respective populations. Ok, you say that the Army is for loosers like me But in Germany, I take it you are German (or are playing one on this board) have you ever seen a non-German civil servant? I cant see why a 3rd generation Turk would not want to be a member of the German diplomatic corp or security services.
That's all I am saying. It seems like the non-white immigrants in the EU--not the UK--don't really have a stake in the place where they live. And this is not good.
Now, if you are saying that Europeans--of all hues-- are not very patriotic then I guess I am assuming too much.
But in Germany, have you ever seen a non-German civil servant? I cant see why a 3rd generation Turk would not want to be a member of the German diplomatic corp or security services.
There are Turkish soldiers, civil servants and members of parliament in Germany, but they are required to be naturalised, i.e. have become German.
There are Turkish soldiers, civil servants and members of parliament in Germany, but they are required to be naturalised, i.e. have become German.
I have read that while immigrants from former French colonies (Senegal, Algeria, etc.) were granted full-fledged French citizenship right off the bat, even 2nd and 3rd generation Turks don't have German citizenship. Ironically, the Turks in Germany are less segregated economically/spatially than their counterparts in the Parisian banlieus.
A lot of nonsense.
Without immigrants, the EEC would collapse.
Why? Local population in Western Europe has become too soft on the edges and will not do many needed tasks, notwithstanding the fact they are unemployed.
For example, when I open shop and go to the market, most people I see on the streets (a wealthy town near Barcelona) are colored people.
Moorish on construction sites, Ecuatorian women working as maids and taking care of elder people, waitresses and a large etcetera.
Why we do not find local people to work on hostelry in a country with a "supposed" unemployment of 20 percent or more? Because they won't put with the long hours, they won't work on Sundays, they receive subsidies and work on the black economy, all local low class kids are disfunctional during weekends because they get seriously drunk, etc.
So without immigration, the EEC and the US would collapse.
As to colored "civil servants", there are colored people on the Army and also politicians, but immigration here is a very recent phenomena, 10 years or so, so most are not even Spanish (a lot of illegals too).
A lot of nonsense. Without immigrants, the EEC would collapse.
(...)
Obviously, you don't think that this labor could be found in EEC countries which dearly need it, for instance eastern Europe?
Just making an ironic point here. It is often forgotten what the EU was even created for, especially the free circulation of labor within the common market. But somehow our elites are so keen on importing non-EU labor, because I suspect company lobbies are pushing for this labor to come in as even eastern EU labor is still too expensive.
Quote:
Datafeed
But can you address my grater point? I will concede that joining the Army in Germany may not be seen as high flying. In fact, in America--and I am a vet--the rural poor and urban poor comprise the bulk (but not all) of the enlisted ranks and the officer corp is is proportionally southern. That being said, I am glad I joined the USN.
Taking again Germany as an example.
I think it has all to do with the kind of immigration, say in Germany, vs that of France & the UK.
Alot of German immigrants are first generation and don't have a high need to join these professions you mention.
I personally think after high influx of migrants, and at least 2 generations, you will see alot more Bundeswehr recruits from immigrant background , also in Police and so on.
You have to remember that immigration in Germany is still a recent phenomenon especially in some parts of Germany.
I'll give you for example where I currently live, the Bavaria and Alpine region.
In the small villages close to the Alps, which make up alot of the Alpine troops Bundeswehr recruits historically, there has been close to 0% immigration, immigrants can be counted on fingers.
So it makes sense not many alpine troops are non-white. Because immigration has not been enough to culturally infiltrate this strata of society, if I may say so.
I could apply this to the rest of Germany at all levels.
It just needs time.
And by the way, this phenomenon is also happening completely on an opposite level in some areas.
For example, having worked in large firms, I know for instance finance departments of many German firms (Volkswagen, BMW, etc...) are *entirely Indian* even if they speak no German.
There was just a need on German society's part, and a want from this specific immigrant community, and things happened naturally.
When immigrants feel the need to join Military & Police, and other government functions they will.
By the way, speaking of government people (office people), there are quite a few people from immigrant background.
But you have to remember alot of immigrants, being first gen, dont speak German the level that would be expected for this, and that is an obstacle.
Give it 1 or 2 generations.
And I just named Germany, its even "worse" if you go to countries where immigration has been VERY VERY low like in Eastern Europe where even Western Europeans dont go.
Its all about the history of immigration, the time they have been there, their level of integration, and so on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalLord
I have read that while immigrants from former French colonies (Senegal, Algeria, etc.) were granted full-fledged French citizenship right off the bat, even 2nd and 3rd generation Turks don't have German citizenship. Ironically, the Turks in Germany are less segregated economically/spatially than their counterparts in the Parisian banlieus.
Logical, France being an ex-colonial power, that it would grant citizenship to these people.
Germany's immigration stems from the "guest workers" that were supposed to work on contracts in the 50s/60s and then go back to Turkey or wherever they came from.
Germany citizenship law was only recently changed so that non-Germans could become German (before Jus sanguinis was applicable, not only being born in Germany is enough).
I have read that while immigrants from former French colonies (Senegal, Algeria, etc.) were granted full-fledged French citizenship right off the bat, even 2nd and 3rd generation Turks don't have German citizenship. Ironically, the Turks in Germany are less segregated economically/spatially than their counterparts in the Parisian banlieus.
Maybe if Germany had proper colonies...
All foreigners who have legally lived in Germany for a certain amount of time will receive full citizenship if they apply for it.
I can comfort you in your grief, Datafeed. Like 70% of all "BurgerKing/McDonalds/KFC..." staff in the larger German cities (or Western European cities) is composed of "non-whites" or immigrants. Isn't that representation enough?
Not only were the vast majority born in the US, the vast majority have been living here going back to colonial times
You're an intrepid traveler, but you've been to Holland. There is no such thing as a country named Holland. UK police also do not carry guns, only special armed response officers do and they do not do routine patrols.
Why do the European countries let these immigrants in? For the same reason the US lets them in, to dilute the pool of labor, dilute the power of organized labor especially, and to drive wages down. More able bodies workers equals less wages, supply and demand
Well, maybe the OP in fact WAS in Holland, in the area in the Netherlands.
Talking about immigrants is not politically correct; don't even think to raise a question if this insane recent immigration is sustainable cause you'll immediately be labeled as "racist".
I read today that there are 26 million unemployed in EU.
I'm not an optimist about this.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
But in Germany, I take it you are German (or are playing one on this board) have you ever seen a non-German civil servant? I cant see why a 3rd generation Turk would not want to be a member of the German diplomatic corp or security services. 
