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"The decision is made to depose the governor of Zhytomir' Oblast" and so on.
Yanukovitch was a governor of Donetsk' Oblast.
Yes, but not. The position ' governor ' in Ukraine legally sounds as ' the Representer of the President in region '. It is appointed, instead of an elective office, i.e. the governor maybe not popular and not the skilful head, but having contacts in Kiev. In Ukraine governor do not borrow a position in the government, more likely to the contrary is a seat where direct high-ranking officials ' in resignation '.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muscovite
I don't know, maybe Klitchko will be a good president, but I'm afraid that people who don't have long administrative expierence are weak politicians and can become puppets.
Yes, Klitchko not the skilful head, he badly selects a command, badly conducts elective campaign, has no ideology. I shall not vote for him (except for a case Yanukovich vs. Klitchko). But he has big plus - he completely the independent candidate, it is a rarity for the high Ukrainian policy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pigeonhole
If there was a real man in the Kremlin, he would annex the Donetsk basin, the Kharkov region, and Crimea (big majority Russian population) and let the rest of Ukraine go its own way. Unfortunately it won't happen (Wladimir Putin for all its qualities is not such a strongman)
It is absolutely impossible version. And not only because military force of Russia is insufficient. It impossible because in Ukraine is the own authority. Yes, it can will seem weak, but actually becomes very strong and rigid when there is a threat to its powers inside or outside the country. Actually we observed one of examples in the end of a fall - the turn on 180 degrees has occured because of threat of restriction of authoritativeness of Yanukovich. And for Putin here there are no chances too, this turn was only external illusion. Turns will be and in the further, as a mill, or as whirlpool of money and authorities.
Unfortunately it won't happen (Wladimir Putin for all its qualities is not such a strongman)so there will be protacted dally-dallying with the burlesque theater in Kiev for months to come, and in the end the Ukrainian opposition , headed by a boxer (!!!!!!) will reap the ripe fruit, sell Ukraine to Brussels , and once again Russia will be depicted in the politically correct Westgern media as the bogeyman. Nothing new under the sun.
Interesting. Then perhaps the time is right for Putin. Now's the time maybe for him to fly in to Kiev and say hello and do some nice politicking. Maybe brush that PR for himself. For me, he, how can we say it?, is not 'lovable'. Best time I think for him to re-brand himself and Russia. The man running the show should be there. Built-in audience already if you get the rift..thousands in the streets.
I'm putting the words in your mouth because I follow the logic of your arguments. And the logic behind it is the same that Ukrainians who are talking about their "true Europeaness" are using, even if you don't want to spill same words out.
It's called association fallacy and it's not very conducive to a productive discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
It's not that he is "oblivious," but he is looking at things from more practical point of view, punching the numbers and reading Global Post. Or Forbes.
If you are looking for economic analysis, I strongly advise against reading Forbes (I don't read GP, so I won't opine about their qualifications, but I have no reason to believe that their are particularly high either). Ukraine's economy is in a horrible shape, but joining a dead-born economic bloc against the will of its own people just to solve immediate liquidity problems is hardly an optimal long-term solution.
erasure
Of course, some facts that he used are correct. For example, Kiev-Mogilansk academy was indeed flourishing in early 18th century.
And Vernadski indeed participated in the foundation of Ukrainian Academy of Science, because in Russia at that time there was a period of revolutionary anarchy, he was sceptical about Bolsheviks and their future and he decided that maybe he can done something in Ukraine.
But I don't see how these historical facts can help us to understand the current situation in Ukraine and how the leaders of the opposition are going to improve it.
These historical facts help you understand where Ukraine stands today economywise and why; it helps understand that all those wonderful "flourishing" academies didn't mean much at the end, otherwise Ukraine would have been able to come up with all those gifted and talented scientists and researches on her own, ( instead of capitalizing on few old projects from Soviet times, something like... god, from 1959))))
It helps to understand what Ukraine traditionally was with its fertile lands and mining industry and why it couldn't really recover once separated from Russia. It can help understand the roots of her particular current situation;
"The protests underscore the diverging paths Russia and the 28-member EU are offering Ukraine, a key east-west energy transit route. Stuck in a third recession since 2008 after the global economic crisis triggered a drop in the price of steel, a vital export, the country of 45 million needs cash to pay back debt and finance its budget deficit.
Foreign reserves have plunged more than $6 billion in the last year and stood at $18.79 billion on Nov. 30, the lowest level since 2006. The government has repeatedly rejected International Monetary Fund bailout terms. It needs at least $10 billion to avoid a possible default, First Deputy Prime Minister Serhiy Arbuzov said Dec. 7, Interfax reported."
"In a speech to the European Parliament, the EU's enlargement commissioner, Stefan Fuele said the EU was ready to help Ukraine financially "including through topping up IMF loans with macro-financial assistance [and] stepping up the European Union's financial assistance programmes", but it was not clear whether this was an increase over previous offers.
Mr Yanukovych has complained of the cost of upgrading Ukraine's economy to EU standards, saying 20bn euros (£16.7bn; $27.4) a year would be needed while the EU offered only a fraction of that sum.
US Deputy Secretary of State Victoria Nuland met leading opposition politicians and was due to have talks with President Viktor Yanukovych."
"London - Ukraine's internal political problems are already covered by its B-credit rating and it would take a worsening of its ability to access foreign funding to provoke another cut, Standard and Poor's said on Tuesday.
S&P downgraded Ukraine at the start of last month and warned it could cut it further if its international reserves declined faster than expected and its funding commitments became increasingly difficult to meet...
President Viktor Yanukovich's decision to tie Ukraine closer to Moscow has triggered mass protests in Kiev.
Its central bank has been forced to intervene on the currency, and bond and share prices have fallen.
Prime Minister Mykola Azarov's government has resisted pressure from the International Monetary Fund to unhitch the national currency from a tight band around 8 hryvnia to the dollar and allow greater flexibility to reduce imports and help narrow the current account deficit.
But the government's ability to meet a heavy foreign debt repayment schedule in 2014 is undermined by depleted foreign reserve stocks which at the end of October stood at $20.6 billion - which covers less than two and half months of imports. - Reuters"
"EU leaders say their trade pact would have brought investment, but Ukraine's Soviet-era industry relies on Russian natural gas, giving the Kremlin enormous leverage.
Kiev is due to pay just under $4 billion in debt repayments and Russian gas bills in the first three months of 2014. Its foreign reserves have been eroded to prop up the local hryvnia currency. Central Bank figures on Friday revealed only enough foreign currency on hand for less than two months of imports.
The IMF has pushed Ukraine to raise the domestic price of gas and allow the currency to float more flexibily, but the government has refused. If the Fund continued to insist on conditions then "such credit is not needed", Yanukovich said."
So all the Nulands and Ashtons of the US and Europe can run to Ukraine's protestors all they want screaming "foul, absence of democracy and political freedom," but what are they going to do about hard cold facts of Ukrainian economy?
P.S I see some Ukrainians start seeing light, finally; this appeal of Ukrainians to Russians has been re-posted in quite few Live Journals on Russian sites;
"We want you to hear the voice of Maidan through the veil of lies created by Russian media.
We want you to hear, that hundreds thousands of kievans and people from other parts of Ukraine came to Maidan to say "Enough!" to our thieving and lying authorities, to their anti-popular power.
We want you to understand us, we want you to understand our indignation and our pain, that you wouldn't let your government to give a support and protection to those who steal from our people and treat them poorly.
We are not against Russia!
We want to reach out to you and we hope to feel your support and compassion in these trying, difficult times for us.
For yours and our future!
For justice!
For truth!
For dignified life!"
(For English-speaking population of this forum; a guy on the picture holds the slogan "I love Russia, I love Ukraine. I don't like Putin, I don't like Yanukovitch.
A good sign, but as far as I'm concerned - too little, too late and it won't change already anything.
It's called association fallacy and it's not very conducive to a productive discussion.
If you are looking for economic analysis, I strongly advise against reading Forbes (I don't read GP, so I won't opine about their qualifications, but I have no reason to believe that their are particularly high either). Ukraine's economy is in a horrible shape, but joining a dead-born economic bloc against the will of its own people just to solve immediate liquidity problems is hardly an optimal long-term solution.
So Forbes is not good enough, how about those sources I've quoted in my earlier post?
If the results of the integration will be flourishing or just good I will congratulate Ukrainians sincerly. But if they will be bad, our government will find more topics for their propaganda.
I myself is dealing with the subject: to integrate myself with the EU or not. I think in the age of unemployment, it's wiser to stay in the city where I was born, even if Europe has a lot of wonderful places
Last edited by Muscovite; 12-13-2013 at 03:28 AM..
What about them? As far as reporting yesterday's news goes, they are all good. As is Forbes. They are not in the business of economic analysis though.
So.. what's today's news with Ukrainian economy?
Drastically different from yesterday's news then?
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