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Germany is responsible for many things - reformation of Church, writers, musicians, philosophers, scientific inventions and yes - for most devastating wars in world history. It all stem from German "national character," that is quite powerful, controversial and potentially explosive. It creates poets and greedy, calculative, machine-like characters alike. While Americans on another hand do not posses such extreme qualities for the most part ( and neither does American "national character,") there is a catch 22 to it all. There are such things as "short term" and "long term" perspectives ( using American language) and judging Germans in "short term" perspective from the point of view of the last century - yes, they come across as rather dangerous bunch. But you get this picture only if you take in consideration the first part of the last century. However if you look further back and at last fifty-sixty years, Germans yet again present a picture of gifted and capable people, with deep insight into world's affairs, and a lot going on for them in terms of their national culture.
America on another hand, when you look at her in "short term" perspective and "long term" perspective presents an opposite picture. It was a bright start, a promising future, yet the more history progresses the more signs indicate the decay of the country in cultural, domestic and international terms. And that's what Norne is picking on - this side of a picture, being probably from a younger generation and looking more at current developments/perspectives than looking at the past.
P.S. When if comes to WWII, it was really not so much about Germany VS America, but Germany VS Russia - yet another very controversial country with yet another powerful and controversial character. It was all about them setting scores, and they did. America was sitting on the sidelines in this conflict for quite some time before it joined in, really.
Hmm, since you went that way..what reformation of church are you talking about? What religion, Christianity? Fyi.. the Eastern church, perhaps even the Catholic, consider any reformation a sign of heresy. So I wouldn't advertise it much.
Writers/Philosophers? The fundamentals were layed down by Ancient Greeks/Romans, not Germans.
As for musicians, sure for Classical music Germany/Austria are credited with significant contributions, but then again Classical is not the only kind of music out there.
Scientific inventions, they too point to ancient (precursor) European cultures. Many ideas existed for along time. So in essence, German ingenuity was borrowed from more advanced cultures in the past. Check the timeline in this..
I see, so WWII was more about Germany v Russia than Germany vs America. Then what do the 35K American troops still do in Germany? The Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact are no longer.. it's not a matter of one country controlling the other, is it?
Not sure what you mean about decay either. Last time I checked, the US was still the largest economy in the world.
Germany is responsible for the worst wars in human history, WWII(and WWI). Brink of destruction? What, are you 12? Go read some history and then say the US is destructive with wars of aggression. Of course if it wasn't for the US, you'd be speaking German now.
Germany under Hitler kept killing people because of racism. Japan was culturally bond to fight to the death as ancient Japanese scholars called for. Discipline like the Japanese is very different than Apathy from the Germans.
Many in Hitler's regime realized he was a madman and senior officials went against orders such as to burn Paris.
Japan has always been Japan.
Germany, as much of Europe has borders that have been changed many times... even in recent history.
At one time the Austrian Empire dominated all the way to Venice Italy and down the Adriatic and to the North Sea...
I only responded to this thread because having lived and worked in Germany... I have never experienced problems between the people of America and those of Germany...
Politics is another issue and we have plenty in America that think unfavorable of their neighbor's political beliefs.
Last edited by Ultrarunner; 05-03-2016 at 12:11 PM..
Hmm, since you went that way..what reformation of church are you talking about? What religion, Christianity?
Well this one - the Protestant reformation of course.
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Fyi.. the Eastern church, perhaps even the Catholic, consider any reformation a sign of heresy. So I wouldn't advertise it much.
Hmm, since you went that way - yeah, it might be very much so, that all *reformed* Northern Europeans ( and that includes the British AND Americans by the way, since they both belong to the "reformed" church,) are not more than a bunch of heretics.
And that's what Russians are saying all along ( because we all know that "Eastern Church" i.e. Orthodoxy in modern world = Russia first of all.) And Germans of course paved the way for this reformation - so how do you feel in their heretical company now?
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Writers/Philosophers? The fundamentals were layed down by Ancient Greeks/Romans, not Germans.
"Ancient Greeks?" "Romans?" Those lived still in slavery times, so how do you imagine this jump - straight from slavery times to modern world? Of course there were intermediary steps of social development of human kind in Europe. And that's where Germany ( with its writers/philosophers) plays its role. Didn't you learn history, identifying this gradual process? The transition, different formations, from slavery to capitalism, the Age of Enlightenment - that kind of stuff? ( On the other hand - don't answer. I remember now how they teach history in American schools. I've been there, I've seen it help me lord. )
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As for musicians, sure for Classical music Germany/Austria are credited with significant contributions, but then again Classical is not the only kind of music out there.
Yes, there are other kinds of music out there, it's just that classical music is the highest achievement of it all in terms of skills, genius and complexity. And yes, Germans scored there big time yet again.
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Scientific inventions, they too point to ancient (precursor) European cultures. Many ideas existed for along time. So in essence, German ingenuity was borrowed from more advanced cultures in the past. Check the timeline in this..
So again - do you imagine that the modern world jumped to current technological stage of development straight from some "precursors" of ancient Persia and China, just because someone discovered something here and there gazillion of centuries ago? No, it has been systematically sorted out, developed and refined by Europeans - it was that intermediary stage, yet another stepping stone, where Germans yet again played an important role.
Just look at all that -
So obviously Germany is a powerhouse when it comes to math and science, and math and science ( technology overall) is precisely what gave a cutting edge to the westerners in the modern world ( along with some other things of course, but that's the major advantage, that other nations are not capable of developing in the same manner.)
And again - Germans are scoring very high here.
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I see, so WWII was more about Germany v Russia than Germany vs America.
Well yes, thank you for acknowledgement.
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Then what do the 35K American troops still do in Germany?
Uh, let's start connecting the dots now, shall we? So the allies (Americans first of all) landed in Europe in May of 1944, when Soviet troops already clearly turned the tide of war. Russians needed that "second front" really-really bad in 1941-1942 to fight Hitler but nope, Americans were nowhere in sight at that point - they showed up ONLY when Russians were clearly winning; not only winning, but presenting a potential threat of overrunning Europe. With the biggest army ( Russian that is) in the world shortly after the end of the war - do you see why Americans would like to keep their troops in Germany? I do.
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The Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact are no longer.. it's not a matter of one country controlling the other, is it?
Not sure what you mean by "a matter of one country controlling the other," but...
"Soviet Union" might not be there any longer, but I have news for you - Russia still is. And that "Warsaw pact" - was only a temporary arrangement that come and go in history.
Here we have to look at things in "short term" and "long term" yet again.
In "short term" Russia had a mortal war with Germany seemingly recently - it's true, and one would think that these two are the greatest enemies, and one has nothing to worry about looking at possible alliance of these two. So all good and dandy, Americans can move their troops away, once Germany is.. a-hem "peaceful and democratic country," but here comes that "long term perspective" in the picture yet again. And that "long term perspective" actually reveals that not all that simple, and going back in history, Russia and Germany's relations were quite intertwined, be that personal or cultural or economic ties, and this includes math and science as well. In fact, even the Russian Academy of Science was founded and blessed by a German ( namely Leibniz,) along with some other things, since granted - Russia is a younger nation than Germany. Think about it in these terms; one country is an old powerhouse of math/technology, but poor in land and resources; the other one is rich in land and resources, and very welcoming to scientific/technological research; not only that, but a very capable "student" too. If Russia and Germany would have EVER sorted out their differences, potentially this would have been a VERY dangerous union for Anglo-Saxon world. In fact Musiqum ( I think) posted a video some time ago, where Stratfor ppl ( or were they from Heritage Foundation? I just don't remember off top now) were talking about precisely that. This potential threat for America, which they think America should avoid, and that's why, my friend, American troops are going to stay in Germany. American presence in Germany is going to remain high. They want to keep that power house (in each and every sense of it) under their control.
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Not sure what you mean about decay either. Last time I checked, the US was still the largest economy in the world.
Look at Norne's post one more time. That's the decay I am talking about. It develops culturally, from within, and economy crash usually follows, not making to wait for long.
1: Do you suspect people in Nigeria, Ghana, and Kenya are incapable of thinking?
I just said that it's difficult to find a represenative cross section of the population in those countries. It's even difficult in well developed countries where polling institutes have several years of experience. When two polling institutes makes a survey about the same topic, they often get rather different results.
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2: You were the one who first introduced the term "weltburger" your claim now that it is inappropriate, rings hollow.
I just don't know how they have translated the term. Maybe they have used the English term. But when Germans hear the term "global" they most likely think of "Globalization". This term is seen very negative in Germany.
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3: The survey found that people in China and other emerging/developing countries felt increasingly, but not overwhelmingly Global Citizens
70% are in my opinion a overwhelmingly majority.
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4: Many would disagree with your characterization of CC services as redundant .
5: So, the number is rising, the Germans are succumbing to the will of the world, but you say it's not smart. So Germans are becoming less able to think for themselves, like the Nigerians etc..........
The vast majority of the population is surely not smart. That's the case in all countries. The majority just don't care. If you ask people whether it's ok that large multinational corporations try everything to avoid paying taxes, almost all people would answer, that it's not ok. But almost no one would change their consumer behaviour and avoid buying products from those companies. Such a company just send a few employees to revamp a playground and the vast majority of the people think "ohh, that's a good company, they take care of the public welfare". Cost of revamping the playground maybe €10,000. Saved tax payments about €150,000,000. The state could revamp many playgrounds if this company would pay their fair share of taxes. And this is just one company.
People that pay with credit cards don't perceive that their behaviour will make the products more expensive. Much fewer people would pay with credit cards if the costs wouldn't be concealed.
Well this one - the Protestant reformation of course.
Hmm, since you went that way - yeah, it might be very much so, that all *reformed* Northern Europeans ( and that includes the British AND Americans by the way, since they both belong to the "reformed" church,) are not more than a bunch of heretics.
And that's what Russians are saying all along ( because we all know that "Eastern Church" i.e. Orthodoxy in modern world = Russia first of all.) And Germans of course paved the way for this reformation - so how do you feel in their heretical company now?
"Ancient Greeks?" "Romans?" Those lived still in slavery times, so how do you imagine this jump - straight from slavery times to modern world? Of course there were intermediary steps of social development of human kind in Europe. And that's where Germany ( with its writers/philosophers) plays its role. Didn't you learn history, identifying this gradual process? The transition, different formations, from slavery to capitalism, the Age of Enlightenment - that kind of stuff? ( On the other hand - don't answer. I remember now how they teach history in American schools. I've been there, I've seen it help me lord. )
Yes, there are other kinds of music out there, it's just that classical music is the highest achievement of it all in terms of skills, genius and complexity. And yes, Germans scored there big time yet again.
So again - do you imagine that the modern world jumped to current technological stage of development straight from some "precursors" of ancient Persia and China, just because someone discovered something here and there gazillion of centuries ago? No, it has been systematically sorted out, developed and refined by Europeans - it was that intermediary stage, yet another stepping stone, where Germans yet again played an important role.
Just look at all that -
So obviously Germany is a powerhouse when it comes to math and science, and math and science ( technology overall) is precisely what gave a cutting edge to the westerners in the modern world ( along with some other things of course, but that's the major advantage, that other nations are not capable of developing in the same manner.)
And again - Germans are scoring very high here.
Well yes, thank you for acknowledgement.
Uh, let's start connecting the dots now, shall we? So the allies (Americans first of all) landed in Europe in May of 1944, when Soviet troops already clearly turned the tide of war. Russians needed that "second front" really-really bad in 1941-1942 to fight Hitler but nope, Americans were nowhere in sight at that point - they showed up ONLY when Russians were clearly winning; not only winning, but presenting a potential threat of overrunning Europe. With the biggest army ( Russian that is) in the world shortly after the end of the war - do you see why Americans would like to keep their troops in Germany? I do.
Not sure what you mean by "a matter of one country controlling the other," but...
"Soviet Union" might not be there any longer, but I have news for you - Russia still is. And that "Warsaw pact" - was only a temporary arrangement that come and go in history.
Here we have to look at things in "short term" and "long term" yet again.
In "short term" Russia had a mortal war with Germany seemingly recently - it's true, and one would think that these two are the greatest enemies, and one has nothing to worry about looking at possible alliance of these two. So all good and dandy, Americans can move their troops away, once Germany is.. a-hem "peaceful and democratic country," but here comes that "long term perspective" in the picture yet again. And that "long term perspective" actually reveals that not all that simple, and going back in history, Russia and Germany's relations were quite intertwined, be that personal or cultural or economic ties, and this includes math and science as well. In fact, even the Russian Academy of Science was founded and blessed by a German ( namely Leibniz,) along with some other things, since granted - Russia is a younger nation than Germany. Think about it in these terms; one country is an old powerhouse of math/technology, but poor in land and resources; the other one is rich in land and resources, and very welcoming to scientific/technological research; not only that, but a very capable "student" too. If Russia and Germany would have EVER sorted out their differences, potentially this would have been a VERY dangerous union for Anglo-Saxon world. In fact Musiqum ( I think) posted a video some time ago, where Stratfor ppl ( or were they from Heritage Foundation? I just don't remember off top now) were talking about precisely that. This potential threat for America, which they think America should avoid, and that's why, my friend, American troops are going to stay in Germany. American presence in Germany is going to remain high. They want to keep that power house (in each and every sense of it) under their control.
Look at Norne's post one more time. That's the decay I am talking about. It develops culturally, from within, and economy crash usually follows, not making to wait for long.
At 81 mil pop. I wouldn't call Germany a powerhouse alone, maybe in Europe and globally through EU/Eurozone (to a certain degree). I'd say the US, China or even India(emerging) are powerhouses. Germany lacks the population, in fact has an aging population, hence why it's been admitting immigrants(some of them even raping local women). It's in the news. Germany needs extra labor. In a few decades you won't even see classic Germans anymore. As for being a Math powerhouse: Geometry was invented in ancient Greece, and algebra I believe is Arabic. You need to get off the high horse.
Ancient Greeks/Romans lived in slavery times? I thought the first invented/developed democracy? What are you talking about?
It's where the original ideas came from that counts, not who refined them.. definitely many did not come from Germany. Check the Antikythera mechanism and its significance.
The reason American troops are in Germany is because of history lessons from the past. Germans are credited with the worst atrocities in human history(some argue the Russians too), so that necessitates American military presence. If Germany is a powerhouse, they should kick all foreign troops out(yeah right).
Germany and Russia, sorting out their differences and uniting? What are you smoking? Me thinks it's you that needs to read some history. You sound like an Eastern German or some kind of Eastern European / German wannabe.. nothing special about it. Put down the pipe and keep an eye on the Chinese(was reading Germany is being flooded with Chinese products too).
Where in the U.S. are groceries even 2x the price of groceries in Germany? Yet you agree with drro that groceries cost 5x more in the U.S., on average? Huh?
You could shop in the fanciest Manhattan grocery stores, and an apple still won't cost 5x that of the most grim fruit stand in rural Eastern Germany.
I think it's fair to say that C-D threads will always have contrarians, no matter how silly the point. If I claimed Mars was made out of swiss cheese I'm sure I would get some support.
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( because we all know that "Eastern Church" i.e. Orthodoxy in modern world = Russia first of all.) And Germans of course paved the way for this reformation - so how do you feel in their heretical company now? 
( On the other hand - don't answer. I remember now how they teach history in American schools. I've been there, I've seen it help me lord. 
)
No, it has been systematically sorted out, developed and refined by Europeans - it was that intermediary stage, yet another stepping stone, where Germans yet again played an important role. 
