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I know myself well and can tell you I am far from a chauvinist, as far as you can get actually. I would argue those of us men who appreciate female beauty are the ones who respect women and want them to have a dominant role in society.
The men who are chauvinists are the ones who want women to play down their looks and be modest. The men who call women who dress up "whores". They are the sexists! They are very controlling and feel intimidated and threatened by female beauty.
If you follow the logical conclusion of your "selfish pleasure" mindset it will eventually lead to an Islamic type culture where modesty is highly valued and women cover themselves in public. I would hardly call that liberating for women,
Great topic! This is my take on it. Looking frumpy is easier. Those who say "they're being themselves or they dress for comfort" probably put more importance on their appearance when they were dating and then became complacent once they were in a long term relationship. I think the only women who can live their lives looking frumpy and attractive at the same time, are butch lesbians who strongly resent looking sexy (as defined by culture) because they feel it's for the visual pleasure of men. Unless you're involved with a butch lesbian, taking your man for granted or single and hoping to meet a man who is also a frump, it would behoove you to wear make up when you leave the house and wear sweats and yoga pants at the health club or in yoga class. Don't fool yourselves. If you're overweight, dress stylish. If you're thin, you can get away with being more casual than if you're fat. All clothes look better on thin people. If you're really into comfort, wear a Snuggie and call it a day. Some people may find comfy and frumpy clothes appealing. Most likely they are those who also gave up on looking good and who are also lazy. Putting on a bit of make up should take no more than 10 minutes. If wearing heels has become cumbersome, it's because you don't wear them often enough. With all of the modern conveniences of today, there is no reason to look frumpy, even if you work full time and are raising a family. Women and men in the 50's managed and most did not have microwaves, dishwashers, central air, etc. I'm in the staffing industry and am amazed how some people dress for an interview in todays' society. I'm also amazed how some people look while grocery shopping on a Saturday. They look like hell. We all want to be comfortable. But we can be comfortable and look well put together. I agree with the OP. I live in an area populated by many Europeans who moved to the U.S. within the last 10 years or so, and these people make many of their U.S. born counterparts look like a bunch of sloppy 10 years olds. Somehow they've managed to move here, learn English, buy a house next to "us", have a couple of kids and work full time. And the women look fantastic as do the men. Perhaps their children won't fare as well after being subjected to our society of pony tails, baseball caps and Payless Shoes? There has to be a balance between comfort and style. Let's call this what it is. Laziness and complacency. It's easier to look frumpy.
Last edited by Chinolala; 05-02-2009 at 02:07 AM..
I don't like the frumpy look. It's an eye sore to me. I don't dress for anyone BUT me. I like to look good. I am European born and yes one of those who moved here ten years ago. I did integrate into this society by speaking the language and getting to know the culture(s) but I did not pick up the frumpy look. I hope my kids don't either. I am not talking about wearing high heels to go buy bread, but if I go to a bookstore with my kids, or the mall, or take them out to lunch, I will be wearing nice things, face dolled up. I don't see many good looking women. Maybe they are, but the way they dress makes them look old and just not good. Don't fool yourself by saying American women dress frumpy because they're liberated (chuckle). Liberated from what?
It's not bad if you dress up, look good, clean, have your hair done. Put make up on. Buy a few sexy shoes/sandals (not payless). Stand up straight. Smile. Oh, yes, smile, and be friendly. All of that will make you look better. And if you live in a community that has immigrants living there too, observe the women. See what they're wearing. Broaden your view. You may learn a few things. We do it too. We pick up things from you. I learned a lot from American women. Those things make me the woman I am.
When I go out shopping by myself, I dress frumpy on purpose. I really get tired of getting hit on or followed or honked at or whistled at or what have you.
If I'm with my husband, I dress up and look nice. I want to be a good reflection on him, and actually enjoy looking pretty.
I can't wear well-fitted clothes by myself without being harassed, so I don't.
I will be honest, I love frumpy looking women. I dont think there is a movement towards it whatsoever these days...but, back in the 90's there certainly was...I miss those days.... Messy hair, flannel, dirty sneakers, ripped jeans.....
That was still a style those women were putting effort into. And much of the early 90s fashion has returned and is on its way back. The plaid, ripped jeans, doc martens, and disty flower prints have all returned to women's fashion. It starts with the hipsters, but it's already hitting the mainstream stores.
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Anyway, I have noticed both men & women dressing "frumpy" & solely for comfort. They essentially look like they go everywhere in their PJs. I'm embarrassed for them. Since when are jeans not comfortable & casual and too much effort?
I don't notice it as any ethnic thing in the US though. There are lots of latin people here in California & they are just as sloppy as non-latin white people.
I partially suspect it is related to the obesity issue. The fatter you get the harder it is to find flattering clothes & the more I imagine clothes are uncomfortable (anything besides elastic digs into your fat rolls I guess).
I don't like the frumpy look. It's an eye sore to me. I don't dress for anyone BUT me. I like to look good. I am European born and yes one of those who moved here ten years ago. I did integrate into this society by speaking the language and getting to know the culture(s) but I did not pick up the frumpy look. I hope my kids don't either. I am not talking about wearing high heels to go buy bread, but if I go to a bookstore with my kids, or the mall, or take them out to lunch, I will be wearing nice things, face dolled up. I don't see many good looking women. Maybe they are, but the way they dress makes them look old and just not good. Don't fool yourself by saying American women dress frumpy because they're liberated (chuckle). Liberated from what?
It's not bad if you dress up, look good, clean, have your hair done. Put make up on. Buy a few sexy shoes/sandals (not payless). Stand up straight. Smile. Oh, yes, smile, and be friendly. All of that will make you look better. And if you live in a community that has immigrants living there too, observe the women. See what they're wearing. Broaden your view. You may learn a few things. We do it too. We pick up things from you. I learned a lot from American women. Those things make me the woman I am.
I don't "dress up" when I'm out. I have jeans and boots and skinny shirts and stuff to wear over them and that is my wardrobe 99 percent of the time. When I was on vacation with my guy friend/whatever I dressed that way too. Why should I give an image of someone who isn't me to someone I am very close to?
I do indeed dress for me. It is how I feel good and comfortable and attractive. I have cleavage and unless its cold and I'm wearing a sweater it shows. But I would feel uncomfortable in something that "covered it up". I use sleveless shirts when its hot if I feel uncomfortable.
I wear makeup on special occasions. Thats what makes them special. Why have my eyes itch and get blurry just so I can "impress" someone?
I think a lot of what is being called "frumpy" is simply casual. Most people dress that way because it is comfortable. And it is "the style" if you want to see it that way. When your going to be walking you should wear shoes that support the feet and let you walk naturally. In a practical sense, as people don't exercise enough, walking around the store or the mall should do something for you.
The really ripped look is not so much frumpy as intentional. If you look at the age its usually younger people. Its their style. It's not meant to impress you but others of their age/group. Maybe you don't like it but to me dressing up to go to the store or walmart is excessive, but I'm not going to be bothered by you if thats your thing. We see what we like in people and the way they dress. What impresses us doesn't everyone. Thats what makes the world an interesting place.
" I don't really reflect on my appearence or how I visually project to others." Uh, yeah. End of discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay F
I don't even remember to be honest. I usually dress business casual. I don't have the sloppy look coolhand68 was talking about (I agree it is very common). I look more clean and cleancut compared to most men at the market, but I generally blend in with everyone. I don't really reflect on my appearence or how I visually project to others. Vanity is a feminine quality.
My wife and I are naturally frumpy and we don't give a flying rats patootie what anyone thinks.
But we are older than dirt so who cares anyway. Live frumpy - die frumpy, vanity is lame and comfort rules when you get older.
Anyone who says they dress up "for me" is delusional. Every choice we make about our hair and our clothing and our makeup is influenced by advertising and the societal norms around us. No one makes their choices on a blank slate. So if you think you're getting dolled up to go to Target because YOU want to look good FOR YOU, you're just wrong. We all dress, to some degree, because others will see us. How far we take that varies. We all have to find what's suitable for ourselves.
So for some man to come complaining to me (via this board) that I don't meet his personal criteria (which apparently requires heels and sexy attire) is preposterous, self-centered, and chauvinistic. You have absolutely no right to judge me. You have no right to expect me to please you in any way. You are nothing to me, and I refuse to give you that power by worrying about what you think. I think your life must be quite sad.
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