Appalachian cultural question (house, unemployment, Mennonites)

[CookieSkoon]

First, a quote from Wikipedia on the ARC defined Appalachia:

The ARC's geographic range of coverage was defined broadly so as to cover as many economically underdeveloped areas as possible; it extends well beyond the area usually thought of as "Appalachia". For instance, parts of Alabama and Mississippi were included in the commission because of problems with unemployment and poverty similar to those in Appalachia proper, and the ARC region extends into Northeastern states, which are never considered part of Appalachia culturally.

Now, this sparked a question within me. Why are these parts of Maryland, Pennsylvania and New York not considered culturally Appalachian?

I grew up in the southern tier of NY, which is in the ARC charter. My family was dirt poor and our “house” didn’t even have running water or a toilet. We lived very rural and were devout Christians. I knew many other families in the area who had the same sort of problems.

In Pennsylvania there is coal mining culture, same as in the Virginias and Kentucky.

In these north-eastern states there are a lot of rural families and several of them are lower class. Many are Christian as well. And of course geographically, it’s very Appalachian. Let’s not forget the heavy Amish and Mennonite presence.

Even negative stereotypes exist, such as junk hoarders and angry hicks (my grandfather was a gun-toting “git off my property” hillbilly through and through and my brother has no teeth!). My neighbor even had a whiskey still in his barn.

Bluegrass music is popular to. In fact, the Gibson Brothers are from the Adirondacks! That’s north country NY, outside of the ARC charter.

So I read about the things that make Appalachian culture what it is. Christian values, vastly rural atmosphere, a love of being left alone, and a do it yourself attitude. All of these things and more are present throughout the north-eastern Appalachians.

So I ask you, why are the north-eastern areas never considered part of that culture? Is it because of the different accents? The different histories?

This is a serious question and I hope to clear it up; because I see no major differences aside from minor regional touches to be honest.

[Craziaskowboi]

I think that the article was based on the assumption that Appalachian culture and rural culture are aspects of Southern culture by extension, which isn't necessarily true. When people think of Appalachian culture, they typically think of "hillbillies, hunters and bluegrass," which seems to be concentrated the most in southern West Virginia, eastern Kentucky and eastern Tennessee. They'll also throw the Confederate flag in the mix because of its prevalence in those three areas as well.

You can find Appalachian culture in New York and Pennsylvania, but not to the degree you'd find them in the other three states. And just because some icons of Southern culture (i.e. sweet tea, Confederate flags, etc.) have been seen and found in New York and Pennsylvania before doesn't mean that they're prevalent enough to define the local culture in any way. Hell, you can find bagels, Buffalo wings and Catholics all throughout the South, but they're marginal enough that they don't have any real effect on Southern culture.

[CookieSkoon]

Originally Posted by Gnutella

I think that the article was based on the assumption that Appalachian culture and rural culture are aspects of Southern culture by necessity, which isn't true. When people think of Appalachian culture, they typically think "hillbillies, hunters and bluegrass," which seems to be concentrated the most in southern West Virginia, eastern Kentucky and eastern Tennessee. They'll also throw the Confederate flag in the mix because of its prevalence in those three areas as well.

You can find Appalachian culture in New York and Pennsylvania, but not to the degree you'd find them in the other three states. And just because some icons of Southern culture (i.e. sweet tea, Confederate flags, etc.) have been seen and found in New York and Pennsylvania before doesn't mean that they're prevalent enough to define the local culture in any way. Hell, you can find good bagels and Buffalo wings all throughout the South, but they don't have any effect on Southern culture.

Right right. I figured it was probably based on an assumption that the north is all urban and liberal and wealthy.

And sure, you won't find Appalachian culture to the same degree of dominance state-wide, but it is very much there. And pretty strong in certain regions, occasionally whole counties. Now the huntsman/fisherman culture is really strong and widespread through-out the rural north-east.

As far as bluegrass music, that has it's place up there. Heck, the town I grew up in had local bluegrass bands playing in the park all summer every year. During the Watkins Glen festivals we'd see bands from in state, and from as far south as West Virginia. Had a group from Vermont even.

Hillbillies are always up for interpretation. If you mean scary inbred looking people who stare at cars going by all day, believe me, the north has them. I knew a woman named (and I kid you not) Poopsie. She was a short old leathery looking lady with a lazy eye who would walk down her dirt road at night with a lantern and scare drivers who went by. We don't know why. She was a bit touched.

But you are right that it is not as strong in the north. We also have our urban cultures and Canadian influences mixing in here and about. My question arose since it used the term never, which is an absolute. And it couldn't be further from the reality of the areas in question. Oh, the stories I could tell!

Not as strong, but still has one heck of a presence.

[Craziaskowboi]

Originally Posted by CookieSkoon

Right right. I figured it was probably based on an assumption that the north is all urban and liberal and wealthy.

That too. I've lived in the South for 16 years, and occasionally I've had to inform some people that Northern and Southern politics aren't as cut-and-dry as they make them out to be. Yeah, Ed Rendell is from Pennsylvania, but so are Tom Ridge and Rick Santorum. Yeah, Newt Gingrich is from Georgia, but so is Cynthia McKinney. And isn't Al Gore from Tennessee?

Originally Posted by CookieSkoon

And sure, you won't find Appalachian culture to the same degree of dominance state-wide, but it is very much there. And pretty strong in certain regions, occasionally whole counties. Now the huntsman/fisherman culture is really strong and widespread through-out the rural north-east.

True. The first day of deer-hunting season is a de facto holiday in parts of rural Pennsylvania.

Originally Posted by CookieSkoon

As far as bluegrass music, that has it's place up there. Heck, the town I grew up in had local bluegrass bands playing in the park all summer every year. During the Watkins Glen festivals we'd see bands from in state, and from as far south as West Virginia. Had a group from Vermont even.

I never said it didn't exist, just that it wasn't as prevalent.

Originally Posted by CookieSkoon

Hillbillies are always up for interpretation.

If you ask Cleveland Browns fans, anybody who lives east of the Pennsylvania state line qualifies. Apparently they're a superior breed of people simply because they live on flatter land.

Originally Posted by CookieSkoon

If you mean scary inbred looking people who stare at cars going by all day, believe me, the north has them. I knew a woman named (and I kid you not) Poopsie. She was a short old leathery looking lady with a lazy eye who would walk down her dirt road at night with a lantern and scare drivers who went by. We don't know why. She was a bit touched.

Welcome to Any Rural Area, USA!

Originally Posted by CookieSkoon

But you are right that it is not as strong in the north. We also have our urban cultures and Canadian influences mixing in here and about. My question arose since it used the term never, which is an absolute. And it couldn't be further from the reality of the areas in question. Oh, the stories I could tell!

Not as strong, but still has one heck of a presence.

The interior Northeast is a blend of Northeastern and Appalachian culture. The idiots on the coast might try to draw the regional boundary at Blue Mountain, but like it or not, they're stuck with us.

[CookieSkoon]

Originally Posted by Gnutella

If you ask Cleveland Browns fans, anybody who lives east of the Pennsylvania state line qualifies. Apparently they're a superior breed of people simply because they live on flatter land.

lol sports. :P

Originally Posted by Gnutella

Welcome to Any Rural Area, USA!

Ain't that the truth! But she's only one of many colorful characters. My father tells this story; when he was growing up, this "special" boy from the top of the hill would meander down to the farm house and stare into the picture window. My father asked him once what the hell he was doing, his answer? "jus' lookin". XD

So my grandfather chased him off with a shotgun.

Originally Posted by Gnutella

The interior Northeast is a blend of Northeastern and Appalachian culture. The idiots on the coast might try to draw the regional boundary at Blue Mountain, but like it or not, they're stuck with us.

Damn straight they are! Though I could do without a few of them. ;D

[Thomas R.]

For some reason I don't normally think of the New England part as culturally "Appalachian." However when I looked up their demographics Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont were much more Scotch-Irish than I thought.

And that's an element I think you weren't considering, but that I'd say is almost crucial. Germans are certainly a part of Appalachian culture, but the Scotch-Irish/Scottish influence is usually pretty key. Amish/Mennonites I would say are generally not culturally Appalachian. Appalachian religion isn't simply "Christian and rural", otherwise much of Nebraska could be deemed Appalachian, it's often a highly emotional form of religion that generally does not require or even encourage pacifism. The people who came to Appalachia were often a "fighting people" and that spirit continued on into the Jacksonian-to-McCain form of political expression. I'm not sure if the New England Appalachians precisely have that as the religions of New England, at least in stereotype, are more staid and non-confrontational.

Still I'd say much of Western Pennsylvania does properly fit as "Appalachian" going by what I know. It's rural, highly Scotch-Irish, emotional religion is popular I believe, the "left alone" thing, etc.

Also Maryland and Pennsylvania can properly be thought of as "Mid-Atlantic" rather than "Northeastern." At the very least I think it makes little geographical, historical, or climatological sense to call Maryland "Northeast." If it's "Northeast" it's Northeast for modern cultural reasons and I don't think those would apply so much to the Appalachian parts. To be honest as Maryland was a slave-state founded by aristocrats it's in many ways historically Southern.

[CookieSkoon]

Thomas R.-

Well, New England really isn't what's in question here. It's New York and Pennsylvania.

And New York, at least the southern tier I grew up in, is very much like western/central PA.

The info on ancestry seems to label much of NY as German, but I am scotch and so are all the people I knew. And the personalities are pretty much the same up there as well. Many people base too much off of tourist towns.

And NY is equally rural in these areas. Much of the "urban" population is highly concentrated in small areas, leaving a lot of open space.

What I'm saying is, everything that seems to make up Appalachian culture, exists there as well. Including the general landscape and forests.

[davidals]

I don't know much about the south central part of upstate NY.

I've always considered Appalachia to be - culturally N central Pennsylvania down to NE Alabama, and extending west over the Cumberland/Allegheny Plateau. The plateau is one continual landform, from PA to AL, the northern half of it is called "Allegheny" and the southern half is called "Cumberland," but the topography is the same. Lots of coal, caves, dotted with small, kind of sleepy towns that - from north to south - are somewhat isolated form the rest of the states they are in.

There's a specific Appalachian accent that you will hear from East TN/western NC straight up the Appalachinas into SW Pennsylvania, so at least the area from roundabout Knoxville/Cherokee to Pittsburgh definitely is a distinct, unified cultural region, and that becomes clear once you get out of the cities or larger towns. The accent you hear in NW North Carolina (I lived there for 12 years) is quite similar to what you hear in SW Pennsylvania (where I had friends), with a little more drawl added, but a lot of the same unique expressions. And that accent was and is a radical departure from what you hear in the flatland parts ("off the mountain") of North Carolina - I suspect the same to be true in Pennsylvania.

--------
To get really geeky and tangential: geologically, the Appalachians are older than the Atlantic Ocean, and the actual bedrock formations extend down to around the Big Bend area of Texas. Erosion and sediment buildup downstream from the Rockies has eroded them flat SW of the south central part of Oklahoma. The Ouachita Mountains of OK and AR, the Ozark Plateau (originally part of the same Cumberland/Allegheny Plateau), the main body of the Appalachians from AL to NB, and the island of Nefoundland are all remnant pieces of what was once a much, much larger mountain range. The Anti-Atlas mountains of Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia; the highlands of Scotland, and the range running the length of Norway are the disconnected pieces of the same primordial range on the other side of the Atlantic, split apart by the rifting that created the Atlantic Ocean. All of those ranges, plus that bedrock in west Texas have identical chemical signatures, which do not resemble those in any other ranges in the world.

Given the age of the rock, the level of erosion, the age of the Atlantic, and the distance that sediment has traveled (the entire Atlantic coastal plain from Alabama to New Jersey is accumulated erosional runoff from the Blue Ridge), plus the filling of the Mississippi embayment (a northern arm of the Gulf of Mexico - the present day states of Mississippi, Louisiana and Arkansas, all sediment runoff from the Rockies and the Appalachians that filled in a small gulf and brought it slowly above sea level, one flood at a time), it has been speculated that the orginal range of mountains may have once been as large as the Andes, if not the Himalaya.

[Thomas R.]

Originally Posted by CookieSkoon

Thomas R.-

Well, New England really isn't what's in question here. It's New York and Pennsylvania.

I thought it might not, but technically parts of New England are in the Appalachian Mountains. I tend to think when they say "don't include the Northeast" that's maybe more meant. Although I do know that many wouldn't think of any part of New York or even Pennsylvania as "Appalachian."

I admit I don't normally think of Western New York as "Appalachian" but I've read things that make me reconsider that.

[CookieSkoon]

Originally Posted by davidals

I don't know much about the south central part of upstate NY.

I've always considered Appalachia to be - culturally N central Pennsylvania down to NE Alabama, and extending west over the Cumberland/Allegheny Plateau. The plateau is one continual landform, from PA to AL, the northern half of it is called "Allegheny" and the southern half is called "Cumberland," but the topography is the same. Lots of coal, caves, dotted with small, kind of sleepy towns that - from north to south - are somewhat isolated form the rest of the states they are in.

Believe me, southern NY fits in, definitely a border area where things are changing from south/central Appalachia to the north though. For example, the coal seams end pretty much right before hitting NY. However, the entirety of southern NY is part of the Allegheny plateau. From the west border, along the finger lakes, and ending in the Catskills; where it hits the Hudson and Mohawk valleys, which to me are the real clear borders of where Appalachian culture as we think of it, ends, and the New England/Adirondack/NYC cultures set in.

Having been deep into PA and to western Maryland and even West Virginia (which I loved), I can say that southern NY is a part of that culture in many ways. The people really aren't that different. Especially comparing to PA specifically. There are differences, but that's to be expected in any region from end to end, and they aren't really all that drastic.

I guess to use a strange example: If the heart of the Appalachians was a big city, then southern NY, eastern Ohio, and central Alabama would be like it's suburbs. Part of that culture, while also being on the edge of a different one. I hope that makes sense.

I think the trouble comes in when people go to that area of NY, they tend to visit places where a lot of people from other areas have moved to. So they don't really get a lot of the actual rural/native culture of the area. They see the wineries or the cities or sometimes never even go into the hills and keep it on the Ontario plain to the north, which has a VERY different culture (seriously, hang around Elmira then go to Rochester, very different worlds).

I hope that clears south/central NY up for you. At least I have always Identified with Appalachia personally (which is no secret at this point).