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Old 12-06-2013, 10:50 PM
 
649 posts, read 983,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
I don't see anything wrong with this. America is a very new country made up of almost entirely immigrants (what I mean is that most people who live here have an ancestor, or even a parent, who came here from elsewhere… a good portion are even immigrants themselves at this time) and while we have a culture, it's not like any cultures in Europe that I can see. We're a mixed bag here. So what if people want to see where they came from? America is not even 300 years old and European-Americans' ancestors likely came from a country more rich in history and age and they likely still have family in Europe. I know I do. Not everyone in my extended family came to America when my great-grandparents, or great-great-grandparents, did. I don't see a problem in exploring where your ancestors came from to get an idea of your ancestry at all.

I don't wish for America to be more like Europe, at all, but I see no problem with Americans exploring their European ancestry.
I don't think you even paused and realized the actual magnitude of the figures and facts you're quoting. 300 years isn't short. It's not 50 years! There are countries whose independence are just 30-50 years old and have a stronger national identity that doesn't look back. Ask me more and I'll tell you.

In the time since the USA gained its independence, she has surpassed and superseded all European countries. How's that for "short history" or "youth"?

My ancestors immigrated just 100 years ago and already I don't know anybody in my ancestral country. Perhaps my grandfather did, but I don't.

The reason I scoff at American europhilia is because first, it's so common, second, it's so deep, third, it's so laughable because as seen from some other posts here, they have no idea how good they have it compared to them, they put those countries on a pedestal, countries which economists and social scientists have themselves condemned as "finished" (Europe isn't called the sunset continent for nothing) and spoke pessimistically of, and if those European countries are so great why is it that it's the USA that first saved their ass and then second rebuilt their countries? If they are so great why did so many of their people escaped by the tens of millions out and aspire to come here and why is it that it's still happening, Europeans aspiring to marry Americans and dreaming to move to the USA?! Oh yes it is happening and it is the case. Don't even deny it.

And finally, often though not always, it's the same group of white Americans with europhilia who question the loyalty of other immigrant groups like Asian Americans and Jewish Americans. The irony is totally shameless.

Last edited by sadgirl80; 12-06-2013 at 11:38 PM..
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Old 12-07-2013, 12:32 AM
 
12,698 posts, read 10,538,210 times
Reputation: 17611
Quote:
Originally Posted by sadgirl80 View Post
I don't think you even paused and realized the actual magnitude of the figures and facts you're quoting. 300 years isn't short. It's not 50 years! There are countries whose independence are just 30-50 years old and have a stronger national identity that doesn't look back. Ask me more and I'll tell you.

In the time since the USA gained its independence, she has surpassed and superseded all European countries. How's that for "short history" or "youth"?

My ancestors immigrated just 100 years ago and already I don't know anybody in my ancestral country. Perhaps my grandfather did, but I don't.

The reason I scoff at American europhilia is because first, it's so common, second, it's so deep, third, it's so laughable because as seen from some other posts here, they have no idea how good they have it compared to them, they put those countries on a pedestal, countries which economists and social scientists have themselves condemned as "finished" (Europe isn't called the sunset continent for nothing) and spoke pessimistically of, and if those European countries are so great why is it that it's the USA that first saved their ass and then second rebuilt their countries? If they are so great why did so many of their people escaped by the tens of millions out and aspire to come here and why is it that it's still happening, Europeans aspiring to marry Americans and dreaming to move to the USA?! Oh yes it is happening and it is the case. Don't even deny it.

And finally, often though not always, it's the same group of white Americans with europhilia who question the loyalty of other immigrant groups like Asian Americans and Jewish Americans. The irony is totally shameless.
… 300 years is short. Actually, we're not even at 300 years yet. We are a very new country. I don't know what YOU are talking about. Google some European countries, and China, one of the oldest continuous civilizations in the world, then try to tell me we're not a young country.

Before European settlers came here, obviously Native Americans were settled in the land with different tribes. There was no central government, there were no technically drawn borders, and each tribe was different. When the Dutch and English settled, America began with colonization and later industrialization but we didn't break free from colonization until 1776. We are a new country, settled recently in terms of history with a group of people who set out to form a country with a central government, free from monarchy that was the tendency in Europe. We then forcefully and violently drove out the natives who had lived here before us to basically start fresh and create something out of essentially nothing. This is not a hard concept, and every history professor out there will tell you that America is a young country, especially looking at the long human history of the world. This land was occupied, but not settled and formed united as one of anything, even small portions, until it was colonized within the last 500 years. It became America less than 300 years ago.

Yes, America is a superpower. It is incredible how it has come along in such a short time, but that doesn't mean we aren't young. We're just incredible in that way, truly we are. Face it, we are great, absolutely, but we're new to the game. We've seemingly mastered it, or at least have come out on top frequently, but we're still young.

I don't think European Americans, Europhiles as you say, have anything other than an interest in Europe. I think that if they wanted to live there, they would. It's natural to be curious of other places, learn about them and even want to go there, especially if you have family ties to that nation. I don't personally know anyone who is obsessed with Europe, yet I know many who are proud to come from specific European countries and are also extremely proud to be an American. You can be both, it's ok.

Think of it like this: most British people are ethnically British. Most French ethnically French, Italians ethnically Italian, etc. Yes, immigration from the Middle East and Africa is common now in Europe, but still. Most people living in European countries are ethnically from that country. But most Americans aren't ethnically American (native). My nationality is American. I am an American citizen, and a proud one. But ethnically I'm not American - I'm not a Native American. My ancestors came here from Europe. Ethnically, I am Italian, Irish, and German. What's so wrong about me being curious and wanting to explore that? An Italian is proud to live in Italy, why can't I be proud my family comes from Italy (and still lives there) but still love living here, not wanting it any other way?

I don't doubt some people are obsessed with Europe, but I think you're grossly over generalizing and exaggerating.
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Old 12-07-2013, 03:03 AM
 
191 posts, read 221,656 times
Reputation: 249
I want to change my screen name to: 'the big scheme of things.' Because, in the long run what does all this online back n forth even matter?

Personally, I'm not obsessed with Europe...I just like rattling the chains of uptight uber-Patriots who sincerely believe USA is #1 in all the things I mentioned. I mean, we are #1 in prison population ('Land of the Free', y'all!!) but #1 as far as 'best' in everything. :roll:

NOTE: By 'rattling the chains' I mean actually acknowledging that some things could be better here. A lot of things actually. Etc.

*Le sigh.*

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk. All spelling / grammar mistakes are solely the responsibility of Tapatalk Inc.

Last edited by willy_mays; 12-07-2013 at 03:14 AM..
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Old 12-07-2013, 03:26 AM
 
649 posts, read 983,827 times
Reputation: 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
… 300 years is short. Actually, we're not even at 300 years yet. We are a very new country. I don't know what YOU are talking about. Google some European countries, and China, one of the oldest continuous civilizations in the world, then try to tell me we're not a young country.

Before European settlers came here, obviously Native Americans were settled in the land with different tribes. There was no central government, there were no technically drawn borders, and each tribe was different. When the Dutch and English settled, America began with colonization and later industrialization but we didn't break free from colonization until 1776. We are a new country, settled recently in terms of history with a group of people who set out to form a country with a central government, free from monarchy that was the tendency in Europe. We then forcefully and violently drove out the natives who had lived here before us to basically start fresh and create something out of essentially nothing. This is not a hard concept, and every history professor out there will tell you that America is a young country, especially looking at the long human history of the world. This land was occupied, but not settled and formed united as one of anything, even small portions, until it was colonized within the last 500 years. It became America less than 300 years ago.

Yes, America is a superpower. It is incredible how it has come along in such a short time, but that doesn't mean we aren't young. We're just incredible in that way, truly we are. Face it, we are great, absolutely, but we're new to the game. We've seemingly mastered it, or at least have come out on top frequently, but we're still young.

I don't think European Americans, Europhiles as you say, have anything other than an interest in Europe. I think that if they wanted to live there, they would. It's natural to be curious of other places, learn about them and even want to go there, especially if you have family ties to that nation. I don't personally know anyone who is obsessed with Europe, yet I know many who are proud to come from specific European countries and are also extremely proud to be an American. You can be both, it's ok.

Think of it like this: most British people are ethnically British. Most French ethnically French, Italians ethnically Italian, etc. Yes, immigration from the Middle East and Africa is common now in Europe, but still. Most people living in European countries are ethnically from that country. But most Americans aren't ethnically American (native). My nationality is American. I am an American citizen, and a proud one. But ethnically I'm not American - I'm not a Native American. My ancestors came here from Europe. Ethnically, I am Italian, Irish, and German. What's so wrong about me being curious and wanting to explore that? An Italian is proud to live in Italy, why can't I be proud my family comes from Italy (and still lives there) but still love living here, not wanting it any other way?

I don't doubt some people are obsessed with Europe, but I think you're grossly over generalizing and exaggerating.
I'm not comparing with France, Spain, UK, China. There are older countries, just as there are younger countries. Just because there are older countries doesn't make 300 years short. Those history professors you know harp on about America being "young", you know why, because they, like you, haven't shaken off their colonial shackles. They are euro-centric, thus they are focused on America's age of history in relation to their colonial masters. They're wearing colonial blinker, as is the OP.

America has come too far and too long to be exhibiting this colonial hangover. Let me give you an example. Canada and Australia were both British colonies, and both are much younger than America. Unlike America, Canada and Australia never fought a bloody war for their freedom to rule over themselves. Sovereignty was granted by the British peacefully much later. Australia is only 27 years old. If she were a woman, she'd still be too young to marry in some cities and be advised to play the field further while America would have long rotted in the grave. Both Canadians and Australians have a much much stronger national identity than Americans. They also don't look back to the past. Neither do they have an obsession with Europe the way I see some white Americans do.

If you wish to discuss further, I know very well of much younger countries with a very strong sense of national identity. Israel is an example of a country many times younger, barely 60 years old formed after WW2. Israelis are among the proudest people I know who are very certain of their national identity. Some were born there, others were jews who had gone back to their land after being in diaspora in America, Western Europe, east Asia. I've never seen an Israeli telling me of their idolization of some land their parents had immigrated back to Israel from. Never. If anything, everyday they live to fight for the right to be rulers of their own destiny, for the right to be free, the right to be seen as their own - as Israelis and they are cognitively very aware and conscious of that.

Did you know that India, Pakistan, all of Southeast Asia except Thailand were colonized for at least a hundred years by the Brits, French and Dutch and only gained their independence in the 1950s and 1960s, after the Second World War ended? Did you know the offshore states like Taiwan and Singapore are occupied by Chinese immigrants whose ancestors left 100 years ago? Did you know that these states are fiercely independent despite being recognized as nations by the UN barely in the last 50 years, and some like Taiwan even have to fight to assert their national identity apart from their ancestral homeland?

Do you know there are countries like Serbia that's barely 10 years old?

I'm glad that we can agree that there are obsessed ones. And it's those obsessed ones we're talking about. Most Americans I know are just regular hardworking people happy with their lives. Then there are the obsessed ones, usually high falutin who think they're better than other Americans.

If these American europhiles are not particularly slavish, why would we see such threads ever so often in American forums? The funny thing is most of the europhiles have either not been overseas or they went to a few European countries for a short vacation. The other funny thing is, many Europeans especially the northern countries hate and despise the US. Then again, they also hate one another. Everybody hates the Germans, the French hate the Brits, the Brits hate the French and Germans, the Germans, French and Brits hate the Southern Europeans, the Southern Europeans hate the Brits and Germans. Lol

Last edited by sadgirl80; 12-07-2013 at 04:10 AM..
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Old 12-07-2013, 03:35 AM
 
649 posts, read 983,827 times
Reputation: 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by willy_mays View Post
Personally, I'm not obsessed with Europe...I just like rattling the chains of uptight uber-Patriots who sincerely believe USA is #1 in all the things I mentioned. I mean, we are #1 in prison population ('Land of the Free', y'all!!) but #1 as far as 'best' in everything. :roll:

NOTE: By 'rattling the chains' I mean actually acknowledging that some things could be better here. A lot of things actually. Etc.

.
You're mistaken. The observation of euro-philia afflicted Americans made by us does not make us uber-patriotic. Just because we see through you doesn't make us pick up truck driving, raving, patriots who wear Old Glory bandanas.

Do you suppose the world is made up of only USA and Europe? You need to look at a map. We make the observation, precisely because the affliction is so obvious to those of us who didn't get infected, it's directed only at Europeans.

Why don't europhiles like the OP start threads like this asking why doesn't the US be more like Mexico, South Africa, China, New Guinea, or Brazil? Why?
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Old 12-07-2013, 09:31 AM
 
12,698 posts, read 10,538,210 times
Reputation: 17611
Quote:
Originally Posted by sadgirl80 View Post
I'm not comparing with France, Spain, UK, China. There are older countries, just as there are younger countries. Just because there are older countries doesn't make 300 years short. Those history professors you know harp on about America being "young", you know why, because they, like you, haven't shaken off their colonial shackles. They are euro-centric, thus they are focused on America's age of history in relation to their colonial masters. They're wearing colonial blinker, as is the OP.

America has come too far and too long to be exhibiting this colonial hangover. Let me give you an example. Canada and Australia were both British colonies, and both are much younger than America. Unlike America, Canada and Australia never fought a bloody war for their freedom to rule over themselves. Sovereignty was granted by the British peacefully much later. Australia is only 27 years old. If she were a woman, she'd still be too young to marry in some cities and be advised to play the field further while America would have long rotted in the grave. Both Canadians and Australians have a much much stronger national identity than Americans. They also don't look back to the past. Neither do they have an obsession with Europe the way I see some white Americans do.

If you wish to discuss further, I know very well of much younger countries with a very strong sense of national identity. Israel is an example of a country many times younger, barely 60 years old formed after WW2. Israelis are among the proudest people I know who are very certain of their national identity. Some were born there, others were jews who had gone back to their land after being in diaspora in America, Western Europe, east Asia. I've never seen an Israeli telling me of their idolization of some land their parents had immigrated back to Israel from. Never. If anything, everyday they live to fight for the right to be rulers of their own destiny, for the right to be free, the right to be seen as their own - as Israelis and they are cognitively very aware and conscious of that.

Did you know that India, Pakistan, all of Southeast Asia except Thailand were colonized for at least a hundred years by the Brits, French and Dutch and only gained their independence in the 1950s and 1960s, after the Second World War ended? Did you know the offshore states like Taiwan and Singapore are occupied by Chinese immigrants whose ancestors left 100 years ago? Did you know that these states are fiercely independent despite being recognized as nations by the UN barely in the last 50 years, and some like Taiwan even have to fight to assert their national identity apart from their ancestral homeland?

Do you know there are countries like Serbia that's barely 10 years old?

I'm glad that we can agree that there are obsessed ones. And it's those obsessed ones we're talking about. Most Americans I know are just regular hardworking people happy with their lives. Then there are the obsessed ones, usually high falutin who think they're better than other Americans.

If these American europhiles are not particularly slavish, why would we see such threads ever so often in American forums? The funny thing is most of the europhiles have either not been overseas or they went to a few European countries for a short vacation. The other funny thing is, many Europeans especially the northern countries hate and despise the US. Then again, they also hate one another. Everybody hates the Germans, the French hate the Brits, the Brits hate the French and Germans, the Germans, French and Brits hate the Southern Europeans, the Southern Europeans hate the Brits and Germans. Lol
Look, I don't care how old or young other countries are. Fact still is, America is a young country. Serbia may be 10 years old, bit ethnic Serbs have been living in the region far longer. Ethnic Europeans (the ones who discovered this nation) have been in America for a max of 500 years and America itself is not even 300 years old. The Native Americans lived here, and of course it counts, but America today is NOTHING like it was in those days.

I'm done with this.
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:06 AM
 
66 posts, read 97,949 times
Reputation: 79
Car-culture and suburbia is a huge factor in American culture going its separate way from Europe. Europeans never bought into the idea that everyone must own a car and live in the suburbs with their own figurative "40 acres and a mule." The older cities in America have more of a European feel (though still distinctly American) than cities that development after the invention of the automobile. Who can blame our ancestors though for wanting suburbia. Quality of life in the urban centres in the late 19th century was very poor and people simply wanted better. Unfortunately the long term effects of that are just starting to be realized.
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Old 12-07-2013, 12:44 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
17,329 posts, read 19,597,329 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sadgirl80 View Post
Why don't europhiles like the OP start threads like this asking why doesn't the US be more like Mexico, South Africa, China, New Guinea, or Brazil? Why?
Because in addition to having great culture and history, (western) European countries are much more prosperous, in terms of standard of living, compared to those other countries you mentioned. Countries prefer to learn from other countries that are at least near their own level. Otherwise, there's an issue of credibility.

Europe is an easier sell to Americans for that reason alone.
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Old 12-07-2013, 01:33 PM
 
Location: M I N N E S O T A
14,800 posts, read 17,740,969 times
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Originally Posted by sadgirl80 View Post
Nice. What's the city in the second pic?
Omaha One of my favorite cities.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
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Old 12-07-2013, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Prince George's County, Maryland
6,212 posts, read 7,401,553 times
Reputation: 2581
Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
Omaha One of my favorite cities.

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The Omaha pic was okay, didn't look like anything too exciting. But the Atlanta pic was nice and I loved the ones with Pittsburgh and the NYC.
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