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Id agree and disagree. I agree that slave ownership rights were not the ONLY reason for secession, but I disagree that the slave ownership issue was not the primary issue for secession, I believe it was (read South Carolina's clause for immediate secession).
LOL I KNEW there was no way we could stay out of this Steve! BUT..I will try and keep this brief and see if the sorta "informal agreement" we made might still be adhered to. After all, as I noted, the thread I mentioned earlier contains just about every issue, aspect, and opinion possible. And I personally must have done over 50 posts (some were exchanges between the two of us ).
Anyway, the slavery issue (which as you know I too disagree with as being the primary cause per se of the War) was mentioned in some of the ordinances of secession, but not in all. In fact, not AT all (that I am aware of) in the four states of the Upper South. In Texas, like in the rest of the Lower South, it was mentioned. But so were several other matters...such as the failure of the federal government to live up to certain promises in the annexation treaty.
And we both know, on the issue of slavery and other related topics, a great deal of hypocricy existed in the North, and a LOT of proof of the same was provided previously. But bottom line is, personally, as is the case with a lot of Southerners, the slavery issue is immaterial to how I view and honor the Battle Flag today. Just as certain things long past do not affect how I revere the American Flag. No symbol in history is without taint in some realms and to some people. I respect others' right to despise it, if they will respect my right to esteem it. And lets neither side start getting too holier than thou!
Ok, just wanted to note that. Now then, I will bow out again! After all, my two cents worth was tossed in over and over again not long ago on the earlier thread (which, if anyone is interested, can be read by going here: http://www.city-data.com/forum/polit...-you-feel.html)
I think that for alot of people, including myself, the flag stands for southern heritage, but, the kkk and people like them that uses it in a racist way is what is bad about it. people want to say that it represents slavery and racism but all of america once had slaves so does that mean the american flag represents slavery and racism?
It's really funny, I live in the state of New Jersey and I fly the Confederate flag, all my White neighbors oppose it yet my new neighbors which happen to be African-American see absolutely nothing wrong with the flying of this flag! My mother and her family are all southern, born and raised in the South! I think the issue really pertains to those that use the flag issue to stir their own perceptions concerning race!! First of all how does a flag hate ? If we really want to bring up race, why do Blacks and jews have their own seperate organizations, schools, TV ,notably (BET)! I consider this flag apart of American history as apple pie and the Model-T!! For all of you brain-washed Americans ,do you consider the Mexican flag apart of American history?
I've seen Rebel flags in some parts of upstate NY (usually the rural areas) and have seen seem all over PA, both clearly in northern states. I've known people from upstate NY with no ties to the South put Rebel bumper stickers on their cars. Strangely I think I've seen more Rebel flags up North than down South. But I remember seeing quite a few in the border states (MD, WV).
But if you want more opinions, simply use the search option on here. This conversation went on for weeks a couple of months ago.
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Originally Posted by lammius
I grew up in the South, arguably the most sectionalist part of the country, and for many it seemed to be a thing of regional pride. To me, it seemed a thing that had too many negative/hurtful connotations that I didn't want anything to do with it. The only time I saw people waving those flags around was at a local high school. Some kids paraded around outside the school with the flags. They didn't do it because they had southern pride. They did it because they knew it would cause controversy, a scene, and it did.
While for many people the rebel battle flag may conjure up regional pride, I think it has been used/bastardized by so many groups to frighten/intimidate people that there are many people throughout the country who now have different connotations when they see it. I think most people in the U.S. are aware of its divisiveness as a result. I think a good compromise is something like what Georgia did with its state flag. I'm not one to have "regional pride," but if someone really feels a need to express regional pride or identity, an alternative Confederate flag (one that does not have all the controversial baggage of the battle flag) is more appropriate, IMO.
Some Confederate states still carried a Confed symbol on their flag for quite a while and it's become very uncomfortable for them. Some former Confed States must have distanced themselves from that symbolism officially right after the war or went back to the one they had before it. Dropped the Confed idea fairly quickly officially and some things get relegated to history.
In this one anyway it led back to another war. Still baggage in being a battle flag of sorts.
Location: Uniquely Individual Villages of the Megalopolis
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Originally Posted by tallylady46
I've seen Rebel flags in some parts of upstate NY (usually the rural areas) and have seen seem all over PA, both clearly in northern states. I've known people from upstate NY with no ties to the South put Rebel bumper stickers on their cars. Strangely I think I've seen more Rebel flags up North than down South. But I remember seeing quite a few in the border states (MD, WV).
But if you want more opinions, simply use the search option on here. This conversation went on for weeks a couple of months ago.
If people ever got together to discuss why they use it I'd bet they'd never agree. From what I hear Upstate NY was quite a bastion of extreme racism at one time.
I don't think the Southerers use it necessarily for that reason for instance. It means something more and different.
There are hotheads and extremists all over the country in every state and like skinheads adopt the swastika and try to emulate Nazis. The original design of it though came from India or somewhere which didn't mean anything racist. Hitler corrupted the whole thing.
However there are flare ups all too often in Brooklyn NY in nabes but it's not being done by wasps or nazis or the type of groups of old.
Last edited by StuyTownRefugee; 12-03-2007 at 12:50 AM..
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Originally Posted by TexasReb
I did, and it was clarifying!
Touche' on the "superior army" thing though! I would be tempted to mention overall numbers and resources vis a vis overall casualities, BUT as you said, we both know we disagree over the War, The Confederacy, and the Battle Flag, so I agree with you to leave it at that!
I've already ruffled enough feathers on these threads, so I won't say much more, but this has been Virginia's flag for as long as I can remember. There's no official allegiance of any kind symbolized or reserved for the Confederacy.
What's taught about that conflict (CW) in most circles is that it was a period of history except for perhaps a couple steeped towns and areas. Xmas, look at happened at Va Tech last spring, do you think they're really concerned with the Confed?
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Originally Posted by chj
I think that for alot of people, including myself, the flag stands for southern heritage, but, the kkk and people like them that uses it in a racist way is what is bad about it. people want to say that it represents slavery and racism but all of america once had slaves so does that mean the american flag represents slavery and racism?
That's right, what about the Union Jack?? The Confed flag resembled it somewhat in design and items.
Rebel Flag, sign of southern proud or sign of racism?
It seems I get different responses based upon which part of the country the person is from.
I lived in the Pacific NW for 8 years, Tacoma and Puyallup area south of Seattle. I saw several "stars and bars" flags over there. One time I saw this Pickup truck with a gunrack in the back. but instaed of guns there were baseball bats.
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