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My man @KodeBlue going through an identity crisis lol. You been on the board for 7+ years and just recently you're on a southern kick lol. You know Baltimore aint "completely" southern. I can't prove it, but I believe you once denounced Baltimore as southern some years ago, when another poster called Baltimore southern. I can't prove it, though, just a hunch...
That said, anybody even slightly familiar with Baltimore knows it's at least somewhat southern, so while I disagree that it's "completely" southern, it certainly isn't completely northern, either. I'd say it's more northern than southern, and to answer your question as to why that may be, I'd say because Baltimore has more cultural and social similarities to DC and points northwards, than to places below DC--most especially the South, south of Eastern Shore VA/MD and Tidewater, VA. The cultural and social bonds present day Baltimore has to other places are almost zero in the South below Maryland...
@q, Wilmington comes off more of a mini-Philly than Baltimore or anywhere else. I didn't get any Southern vine there in accents, food, nothing, but as you've acknowledged before, the state of Delaware isn't devoid of southern culturisms...
@mutiny, he brought up a very solid point, how does any place just change culturally. I attempted to answer it in paragraph 2 above!
But hasn't that always been the case? It would be pretty hard to argue that Baltimore's ties with DC (also historically Southern) and Philly weren't always stronger than its ties to, say, Norfolk and Charleston.
@mutiny, no, you're right, which is why the realest sentence ever spoken about this topic, on this website, was written two years ago back on page 5:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415
The whole concept behind the modern Mid-Atlantic exists off this idea that what is really the Upper South is not southern enough to be the South.
Obviously, every single place is drastically changed from its culture and appearance 100/150/200 years ago. So why isnt Baltimore a southern city any longer? It isn't so much Baltimore that's changed--Americans' definitions of what constitutes "southern" and "The South" is what has changed. It's the reason some people choose to exclude Triangle, NC from the modern-day South (those people are entirely wrong, by the way lol). It's why some people argue against Miami and other parts of Florida as southern. Of course these places are changing, but we all know change is life, and change itself doesn't make one un-southern, nevessarily...
It's us, the American people, who began changing the definition of "southern". Whether that is right or wrong, I don't really know or care. Which again brings up my final point:
The Upper South has always had stronger ties to points north, than to the rest of the South. Obviously i wasnt around in 1917, or 1817, or 1717, but I think it's reasonable to suggest that places like Norfolk, Richmond, DC, Baltimore, Annapolis, and most definitely Wilmington, were never as deeply southern as North Carolina southward, because these cities--to varying degree--almost always had more substantial interaction with places north of them than places south. These cities are the product of coming about in a nation that was exponentially smaller than it is today, a nation where separating north from South was much easier to define and separate than it is today...
As it is, Jersey Gurl mentioned, the South isn't any more homogenous than the Northeast, nor has it ever been. The case for Baltimore as "northern" takes a real hit in that case, because being a different flavor of South is no different than Worcester being a different flavor of North than Pittsburgh. That said, I'm in the sane group as the majority of Americans--my modern definition and thought of southern doesn't really include Baltimore. But....im aware that my opinion is as it is because the common application of such has changed in the US. Baltimore certainly isn't devoid of any Southern characteristics whatsoever, and while I don't consider it part of the modern South, I'm definitely not gonna wage a verbal war of words to argue with somebody who believes it is...
Baltimore didn't change so much as we changed the definition and understanding of what supposedly is "southern"...
Murksiderock, that was a great post. It seems that everyone's definition of the south has changed, basically taking away from it's diversity, and placing it in a small "one size fits all" box. Also, this isn't a verbal war, it's just an exchange of ideas and perspectives to provoke thought, and challenge the way we view things.
Murksiderock, that was a great post. It seems that everyone's definition of the south has changed, basically taking away from it's diversity, and placing it in a small "one size fits all" box. Also, this isn't a verbal war, it's just an exchange of ideas and perspectives to provoke thought, and challenge the way we view things.
I'm from Richmond, another historically southern city that has more in common with cities to it's north (DC, Baltimore to a lesser extent) than to any city or region South of the Tidewater. Honestly, if it wasn't for that four year window as the Capital of the Confederacy, much fewer people would consider us southern today. As it is, I've lived and traveled throughout the South, and have often been told by people from Texas, Oklahoma, Memphis, Mississippi, Georgia, and the Carolinas that I'm not southern and neither is Richmond. Which obviously doesn't negate the southern qualities Rich does have, but that's the real world analysis I've been told personally, despite people on this board's main defense of Rich as southern, our small window as Capital of the Confederacy...
The Mid-Atlantic stretches two regions, like Appalachia. It is both northern and southern. A long time ago it may have centered on NY/NJ/PA. Today it centers on DC-Bmore region people need to recognize it and just let it go!
@mutiny, no, you're right, which is why the realest sentence ever spoken about this topic, on this website, was written two years ago back on page 5:
Obviously, every single place is drastically changed from its culture and appearance 100/150/200 years ago. So why isnt Baltimore a southern city any longer? It isn't so much Baltimore that's changed--Americans' definitions of what constitutes "southern" and "The South" is what has changed. It's the reason some people choose to exclude Triangle, NC from the modern-day South (those people are entirely wrong, by the way lol). It's why some people argue against Miami and other parts of Florida as southern. Of course these places are changing, but we all know change is life, and change itself doesn't make one un-southern, nevessarily...
It's us, the American people, who began changing the definition of "southern". Whether that is right or wrong, I don't really know or care. Which again brings up my final point:
The Upper South has always had stronger ties to points north, than to the rest of the South. Obviously i wasnt around in 1917, or 1817, or 1717, but I think it's reasonable to suggest that places like Norfolk, Richmond, DC, Baltimore, Annapolis, and most definitely Wilmington, were never as deeply southern as North Carolina southward, because these cities--to varying degree--almost always had more substantial interaction with places north of them than places south. These cities are the product of coming about in a nation that was exponentially smaller than it is today, a nation where separating north from South was much easier to define and separate than it is today...
As it is, Jersey Gurl mentioned, the South isn't any more homogenous than the Northeast, nor has it ever been. The case for Baltimore as "northern" takes a real hit in that case, because being a different flavor of South is no different than Worcester being a different flavor of North than Pittsburgh. That said, I'm in the sane group as the majority of Americans--my modern definition and thought of southern doesn't really include Baltimore. But....im aware that my opinion is as it is because the common application of such has changed in the US. Baltimore certainly isn't devoid of any Southern characteristics whatsoever, and while I don't consider it part of the modern South, I'm definitely not gonna wage a verbal war of words to argue with somebody who believes it is...
Baltimore didn't change so much as we changed the definition and understanding of what supposedly is "southern"...
Very good points overall. It's interesting that our definition of what's Southern has narrowed over time, but not all that surprising when you consider what the key historic litmus tests for "Southernness" were (e.g., slavery, Jim Crow) and how much farther we become removed from them as time marches on.
Thats why its called midatlantic....and why DC and Baltimore are the epitome of it. Its not entirely southern or entirely northern. The south doesn't claim it nor does the north.
Thats why its called midatlantic....and why DC and Baltimore are the epitome of it. Its not entirely southern or entirely northern. The south doesn't claim it nor does the north.
Neither region claims, but both regions push them on the other region. That being said, well, you know what region I'm going to put Baltimore in.
Neither region claims, but both regions push them on the other region. That being said, well, you know what region I'm going to put Baltimore in.
DIXIE!!
Dixie .
I never liked that term. Anyway, it would only help Baltimore (MD really) if they market themselves to the South & show off how things are in Mid-Atlantic. MD can successfully appeal to both regions.
Dixie .
I never liked that term. Anyway, it would only help Baltimore (MD really) if they market themselves to the South & show off how things are in Mid-Atlantic. MD can successfully appeal to both regions.
It should market it self to northern states as a premier southern destination. Downtown Baltimore is only 34 miles from the PA state line, so it definitely isn't too far away compared to the rest of the south.
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