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Old 08-17-2010, 07:52 AM
 
Location: Maine
898 posts, read 1,331,274 times
Reputation: 559

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Do people understand the difference these days?

Many people these days seem to equate their civil rights - those privileges granted by society to those who are a part of that society - with their inalienable natural rights that were mentioned in the Declaration of Independence.

I've heard many say that civil rights are not subject to a majority vote. But if that be the case, how then do the come into existence? Laws in this country are passed based on the majority vote of our senators and our representatives, and in some states, through a true majority vote of the people in the form of a Citizens' Initiative.

Civil rights are a creation of law, they do not exist outside of law and society. Without going through a legislative process, they do not exist. They are not inherent, inalienable rights, because they come from other men. They can be taken away by the same process by which they were granted. For if they cannot be revoked by those who granted them, then those who granted them did not have the authority to do so.

Natural rights are those rights that are ours simply by virtue of our existence. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are three that were specifically named in the declaration of independence. These are rights that are inalienable and irrevocable by government, because government did not grant them, they were granted by a far greater authority than that of government.
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:37 AM
 
25,626 posts, read 34,682,318 times
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Civil and Political rights are born out of Natural Rights. An extension so to speak. They can be the same thing depending on how you view them. Contrary to your post any right as defined by your post, can be taken away including your right to life.

Where do your rights come from? How did you come to claim these rights?
Why is life a right? Because the supreme court has specifically stated it is not an inherent right as a sentient being or abortion would be illegal.
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:40 AM
 
2,996 posts, read 5,479,186 times
Reputation: 1806
Quote:
Originally Posted by melinuxfool View Post
Do people understand the difference these days?

Many people these days seem to equate their civil rights - those privileges granted by society to those who are a part of that society - with their inalienable natural rights that were mentioned in the Declaration of Independence.

I've heard many say that civil rights are not subject to a majority vote. But if that be the case, how then do the come into existence? Laws in this country are passed based on the majority vote of our senators and our representatives, and in some states, through a true majority vote of the people in the form of a Citizens' Initiative.

Civil rights are a creation of law, they do not exist outside of law and society. Without going through a legislative process, they do not exist. They are not inherent, inalienable rights, because they come from other men. They can be taken away by the same process by which they were granted. For if they cannot be revoked by those who granted them, then those who granted them did not have the authority to do so.

Natural rights are those rights that are ours simply by virtue of our existence. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are three that were specifically named in the declaration of independence. These are rights that are inalienable and irrevocable by government, because government did not grant them, they were granted by a far greater authority than that of government.
Agree ; the Natural Rights are endowed by our Creator and its important for a Nation to behold them in a sacred manner. But when a Nation shifts the emphasis from our Creator to secular humanism / post modernism .... life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness accompanies a suppression of moral conscience as we readily see played out in society today. People start to acquire a reprobate mind thinking that liberty and freedom means a license to live anyway MAN deems fit .... surely a springboard to anarchy.

Last edited by 007.5; 08-17-2010 at 10:42 AM.. Reason: add
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:45 AM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,848,812 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Originally Posted by melinuxfool View Post
Do people understand the difference these days?

Many people these days seem to equate their civil rights - those privileges granted by society to those who are a part of that society - with their inalienable natural rights that were mentioned in the Declaration of Independence.

I've heard many say that civil rights are not subject to a majority vote. But if that be the case, how then do the come into existence? Laws in this country are passed based on the majority vote of our senators and our representatives, and in some states, through a true majority vote of the people in the form of a Citizens' Initiative.

Civil rights are a creation of law, they do not exist outside of law and society. Without going through a legislative process, they do not exist. They are not inherent, inalienable rights, because they come from other men. They can be taken away by the same process by which they were granted. For if they cannot be revoked by those who granted them, then those who granted them did not have the authority to do so.

Natural rights are those rights that are ours simply by virtue of our existence. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are three that were specifically named in the declaration of independence. These are rights that are inalienable and irrevocable by government, because government did not grant them, they were granted by a far greater authority than that of government.
And yet the government alienates and revokes our rights to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" all the time. The drug war is a good example.

One would think that if there were some "higher authority" granting us natural rights, they wouldn't be so easy to take away.

Don't get me wrong, I am 100% for respecting our "natural rights" as listed in the DoI. I just don't buy the alleged 'source'. I think the insistence of the people to have their rights respected is the real source.
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Old 08-17-2010, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,477 posts, read 56,960,908 times
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Rights are only as secure as you and your neighbor’s willingness to fight and die for them. Rights were not endowed by a creator. They were fought for and won by a dedicated group of British merchants and professional farmers. Eventually they were extended to the rest of us under our republic. They may be removed anytime the aristocrats and the body politic deem it safer to have fewer people with rights.
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:12 PM
 
2,996 posts, read 5,479,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
Rights are only as secure as you and your neighbor’s willingness to fight and die for them. Rights were not endowed by a creator. They were fought for and won by a dedicated group of British merchants and professional farmers. Eventually they were extended to the rest of us under our republic. They may be removed anytime the aristocrats and the body politic deem it safer to have fewer people with rights.
The Bill of Rights says 'endowed by the Creator' -- we all have intrinsic worth and dignity (and thus basic human rights) because of WHO fashioned us in his image. If Government chooses to dispense of our rights , it doesnt change the precept. It means Government chose to enact dissent from an absolute power higher than itself.
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Old 08-17-2010, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Maine
898 posts, read 1,331,274 times
Reputation: 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
The Bill of Rights says 'endowed by the Creator' -- we all have intrinsic worth and dignity (and thus basic human rights) because of WHO fashioned us in his image. If Government chooses to dispense of our rights , it doesnt change the precept. It means Government chose to enact dissent from an absolute power higher than itself.
Small point of contention here, it is the Declaration of Independence, the Charter of this great land, that contains the phrase "endowed by the Creator," and not the Bill of Rights.
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Old 08-17-2010, 04:15 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,796 posts, read 6,939,765 times
Reputation: 5189
Quote:
Originally Posted by melinuxfool View Post
Do people understand the difference these days?

Many people these days seem to equate their civil rights - those privileges granted by society to those who are a part of that society - with their inalienable natural rights that were mentioned in the Declaration of Independence.

I've heard many say that civil rights are not subject to a majority vote. But if that be the case, how then do the come into existence? Laws in this country are passed based on the majority vote of our senators and our representatives, and in some states, through a true majority vote of the people in the form of a Citizens' Initiative.

Civil rights are a creation of law, they do not exist outside of law and society. Without going through a legislative process, they do not exist. They are not inherent, inalienable rights, because they come from other men. They can be taken away by the same process by which they were granted. For if they cannot be revoked by those who granted them, then those who granted them did not have the authority to do so.

Natural rights are those rights that are ours simply by virtue of our existence. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are three that were specifically named in the declaration of independence. These are rights that are inalienable and irrevocable by government, because government did not grant them, they were granted by a far greater authority than that of government.
Agree 100%, it becomes a question of law; to have your rights given to you by your creator, makes you a Citizen, with the same legal standing as a King. That is why the founding fathers were adamant about making the point that the government derived its power from the people. The Citizen was to be above the government, and government was to serve, not rule the Citizens.
To have your civil rights granted to you by a government makes you a subject and puts your legal standing below that of the government. If the government can give you rights, it only stands to reason they must be above you. This is the lie of the 14th amendment, if the government had truly wanted to free slaves, it would have simply recognized their inalienable rights. Instead they "gave" their rights to them, in the process making them a different legal status than Citizens. They are now trying to make us all believe we are 14th amendment citizens.
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Old 08-17-2010, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,144 posts, read 21,629,402 times
Reputation: 14085
The only natural right you have is the right to try to survive in a hostile world. The concept of "Rights" are a 100% human invention and will only ever go as far as a group of people will bestow on one another. Until we stop being magical about it, evolve our monkey butts to a higher level and respect other people on our own, "rights" will come and go with the wind.

Otherwise, it's a jungle out there kids... and it always has been. Who wants steak?

Last edited by Chango; 08-17-2010 at 04:42 PM..
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Old 08-18-2010, 07:45 AM
 
2,996 posts, read 5,479,186 times
Reputation: 1806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
The only natural right you have is the right to try to survive in a hostile world. The concept of "Rights" are a 100% human invention and will only ever go as far as a group of people will bestow on one another. Until we stop being magical about it, evolve our monkey butts to a higher level and respect other people on our own, "rights" will come and go with the wind.

Otherwise, it's a jungle out there kids... and it always has been. Who wants steak?
Yes, if we are nothing but the glorified product of Pond Scum which arrived from accidental DEAD chemicals and magically worked its way up to a 206 bone human being having some 60 major anatomical systems all working collaboratively so we can live....there is no intrinsic worth or dignity in any human being . Fortunately, atheist scientists themselves calculate the desperate philosophy of abiogenesis at 10x40,000 th power probability and macro evolution at 1 in over 4,000,000 chance probability. So rest assured your great ancestor didnt swing from a tree and you are very special , have intrinsic worth and dignity, and should have full respect from your fellow man for your inalienable rights ; the trouble is, they think and act like they are forest animals too making Rodney Dangerfields mantra ring true :
'I just cant get no respect' . The only way of making peoples basic human rights stick, is to get beyond Man being the Determiner.
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