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Right. His example of a claimed model for a better health care plan is an existing insurance company. Wonderful.
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Originally Posted by tickyul
But...sorry, ideology trumps logic on this issue........even if Obamacare makes things more expensive and less efficient.
No, fact and reason should be the drivers here, and you aren't using a lot of either one. The current system is perhaps the world's prime example of a certfied recipe for disaster. The current health care system will do what Kruschev couldn't -- bury us. Change is mandatory at this point, and change does not equate to such mere corporate sops as tort reform and killing states' rights to regulate insurers.
Against long odds and in the face of simply absurd lies and disinformation based on nothing but the partisan bias you pretend here to complain about, HCR has created a roadmap to take us away from the model that is killing us and -- without killing any of even the most egregious players heretofore -- moving us toward a system where we can maximize benefits and minimize costs for all Americans. That, I gather, you think to be a bad idea.
Despite Pelosi's best efforts from 1/09 thru 1/11, we won't end up like Greece..thanks to 11/2/2010.
Yeah, it's like day and night, the difference that electing a Tea Party House has made. What have their accomplishments been again? Are there any? I mean good ones, of course...you know, the sort of things that actually help people or their country...
In this whole discussion, I haven't yet seen a cogent explanation of exactly what the health care reform package consists of, or what its effect will be on middle-class Americans, other than some encouraging words about road maps accompanied by veiled insults directed at anyone who is not fully onboard the deficit express from our resident government apologist (employee?).
I guess that makes me the typical Democrat congressperson, since so few of them had any idea what they were voting for, other than a Biden-esque "big f---ing deal."
We know the lay of the land. We know the GOP is in the pockets of the big drug companies and the private insurers. Until recently, so were the Democrats. Now the latter party answers to the public employees unions, which they are looking froward to enlarging exponentially by taking over the nation's healthcare industry with an(other) immense federal bureacracy.
A lot of the people here think instinctively that that is a bad thing. There are dark rumblings of socialism, Britshers with bad teeth and ugly steel spectacles, and Canadian waiting lists for appendectomies -- not to mention a federal deficit approaching the size of Jupiter. Other people here think that the only solution to the naked greed of unprincipled insurers (of which there are so many anecdotal examples that I accept the smoke as indicating a fire, though I've personally never had any problem with them, and my healthcare needs have been multiple and profound) and the truly alarmingly spiraling costs of healthcare, is for the government to take over, a la Medicare at all levels, both to address the needs of the currently uninsured and to punish those who would question the overweening right of the federal government to do what it damn well pleases, Jefferson Davis!
I guess what I'm asking here is a basic explanation of exactly what Mr. Obamas has in mind for us, healthcare-wise, what the current "reform" package addresses, and whether it is simply a first step in the complete takeover of the nation's healthcare system by a federal government imitating, say, Norway or Canada -- only with a population characterized by a level of diversity and downright orneriness unimaginable to the people of such chilly, smug, homogenous lands.
Again -- some explanation of the White House efforts in this area --- not essays dealing with why the other side is ignorant or evil.
In this whole discussion, I haven't yet seen a cogent explanation of exactly what the health care reform package consists of, or what its effect will be on middle-class Americans, other than some encouraging words about road maps accompanied by veiled insults directed at anyone who is not fully onboard the deficit express from our resident government apologist (employee?).
I guess that makes me the typical Democrat congressperson, since so few of them had any idea what they were voting for, other than a Biden-esque "big f---ing deal."
We know the lay of the land. We know the GOP is in the pockets of the big drug companies and the private insurers. Until recently, so were the Democrats. Now the latter party answers to the public employees unions, which they are looking froward to enlarging exponentially by taking over the nation's healthcare industry with an(other) immense federal bureacracy.
A lot of the people here think instinctively that that is a bad thing. There are dark rumblings of socialism, Britshers with bad teeth and ugly steel spectacles, and Canadian waiting lists for appendectomies -- not to mention a federal deficit approaching the size of Jupiter. Other people here think that the only solution to the naked greed of unprincipled insurers (of which there are so many anecdotal examples that I accept the smoke as indicating a fire, though I've personally never had any problem with them, and my healthcare needs have been multiple and profound) and the truly alarmingly spiraling costs of healthcare, is for the government to take over, a la Medicare at all levels, both to address the needs of the currently uninsured and to punish those who would question the overweening right of the federal government to do what it damn well pleases, Jefferson Davis!
I guess what I'm asking here is a basic explanation of exactly what Mr. Obamas has in mind for us, healthcare-wise, what the current "reform" package addresses, and whether it is simply a first step in the complete takeover of the nation's healthcare system by a federal government imitating, say, Norway or Canada -- only with a population characterized by a level of diversity and downright orneriness unimaginable to the people of such chilly, smug, homogenous lands.
Again -- some explanation of the White House efforts in this area --- not essays dealing with why the other side is ignorant or evil.
Thanks!
Good points and good question...for which I doubt anyone who is for the healthcare law will privide substantive answers. It's a 2500 page bill and a lot of the details haven't even been written yet. Even leftists like Naomi Wolf have questioned it.
Good points and good question...for which I doubt anyone who is for the healthcare law will privide substantive answers. It's a 2500 page bill and a lot of the details haven't even been written yet. Even leftists like Naomi Wolf have questioned it.
I understand why it was passed the way it was. If the GOP had been in the same boat, and were facing the kind of pasting the Dems took in 2010, they'd have done something similarly partisan.
I just want to have some idea of what was passed (not political philosophy -- I'm pretty well up to speed on why the Dems/Reps are the devil incarnate), and what the future holds for us older folks....
In this whole discussion, I haven't yet seen a cogent explanation of exactly what the health care reform package consists of, or what its effect will be on middle-class Americans...
Maybe that's because until some guy claiming not to want to hijack the thread decided to bring up health care, the discussion was about there being zero prospects for the US turning into Greece.
But if, after a year of debate and a year and more of implementation, you are still in the dark about PPACA, there is plenty of info-for-newbies available at www.healthcare.gov. They even have an Understand the Law section for people just like you. Maybe you were too busy to follow along. Maybe you tried to pay attention but became distracted by ridiculous right-wing propaganda. No problem. All the information you need is available now on the website. You should check it out.
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Originally Posted by Yeledaf
...other than some encouraging words about road maps accompanied by veiled insults directed at anyone who is not fully onboard the deficit express from our resident government apologist (employee?).
People can get off the train whenever they want. I merely recommend that they wait until it pulls into a station first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf
I guess that makes me the typical Democrat congressperson, since so few of them had any idea what they were voting for, other than a Biden-esque "big f---ing deal."
It appears likely from the above that all of them would have known more about what they were voting for than you or the average Town Hall Meeting hooligan ever did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf
We know the lay of the land. We know the GOP is in the pockets of the big drug companies and the private insurers. Until recently, so were the Democrats. Now the latter party answers to the public employees unions, which they are looking froward to enlarging exponentially by taking over the nation's healthcare industry with an(other) immense federal bureacracy.
Oh dear. PPACA doesn't nationalize anything. There will be approximately zero new public employee union members as its result.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf
A lot of the people here think instinctively that that is a bad thing. There are dark rumblings of socialism, Britshers with bad teeth and ugly steel spectacles, and Canadian waiting lists for appendectomies --
Always with the UK and Canada. They have actual national health care systems. And while they both in fact provide perfectly good dental and vision care, there are other countries with health care better than ours that do not have such systems at all, and their number is greater than two. The French for example think the British health care system is on par with British cooking -- intolerable. Yet the French have a national health care system of their own and (as you may recall from previous abysmal efforts to attack it) it puts them at or near the top of the list in category after category, while the US is more typically found at or near the bottom among developed countries. And we pay about 50% than they do for the privelege. Why do some people hold out to the last man in defense of low quality at high prices?
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Originally Posted by Yeledaf
...not to mention a federal deficit approaching the size of Jupiter.
That one actually has George W Bush written all over it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf
Other people here think that the only solution to the naked greed of unprincipled insurers (of which there are so many anecdotal examples that I accept the smoke as indicating a fire, though I've personally never had any problem with them, and my healthcare needs have been multiple and profound) and the truly alarmingly spiraling costs of healthcare, is for the government to take over, a la Medicare at all levels, both to address the needs of the currently uninsured and to punish those who would question the overweening right of the federal government to do what it damn well pleases, Jefferson Davis!
I must have missed some posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf
I guess what I'm asking here is a basic explanation of exactly what Mr. Obamas has in mind for us, healthcare-wise, what the current "reform" package addresses, and whether it is simply a first step in the complete takeover of the nation's healthcare system by a federal government imitating, say, Norway or Canada -- only with a population characterized by a level of diversity and downright orneriness unimaginable to the people of such chilly, smug, homogenous lands. Again -- some explanation of the White House efforts in this area --- not essays dealing with why the other side is ignorant or evil. Thanks!
Basic and exact, huh. Sort of like ordering unsweetened tea with sugar. For basic, you've got the website linked to above. For exact, you know exactly where you can go.
Location: Currently I physically reside on the 3rd planet from the sun
2,220 posts, read 1,877,888 times
Reputation: 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista
Maybe that's because until some guy claiming not to want to hijack the thread decided to bring up health care, the discussion was about there being zero prospects for the US turning into Greece.
But if, after a year of debate and a year and more of implementation, you are still in the dark about PPACA, there is plenty of info-for-newbies available at www.healthcare.gov. They even have an Understand the Law section for people just like you. Maybe you were too busy to follow along. Maybe you tried to pay attention but became distracted by ridiculous right-wing propaganda. No problem. All the information you need is available now on the website. You should check it out.
Ideas different than your own aren't necessarily propaganda.
Without specifying what you are talking about, just painting with a broad 'right-wing propoganda' brush is over-generalizing.
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Originally Posted by saganista
People can get off the train whenever they want. I merely recommend that they wait until it pulls into a station first.
I'm sure people could understand your point without the edge and sarcasm.
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Originally Posted by saganista
It appears likely from the above that all of them would have known more about what they were voting for than you or the average Town Hall Meeting hooligan ever did.
Name calling?
Yea technically you can say you are comparing someone with something, perhaps a metaphor, but come on, your really just calling those who think differently than you derogatory names.
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Originally Posted by saganista
Oh dear. PPACA doesn't nationalize anything. There will be approximately zero new public employee union members as its result.
May be a good point, you don't need the sarcasm though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista
Always with the UK and Canada. They have actual national health care systems. And while they both in fact provide perfectly good dental and vision care, there are other countries with health care better than ours that do not have such systems at all, and their number is greater than two. The French for example think the British health care system is on par with British cooking -- intolerable. Yet the French have a national health care system of their own and (as you may recall from previous abysmal efforts to attack it) it puts them at or near the top of the list in category after category, while the US is more typically found at or near the bottom among developed countries. And we pay about 50% than they do for the privelege. Why do some people hold out to the last man in defense of low quality at high prices?
Now you are making good points.
A bit subjective perhaps, but at least you are addressing issues instead of just ranting at people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista
That one actually has George W Bush written all over it.
I must have missed some posts.
Basic and exact, huh. Sort of like ordering unsweetened tea with sugar. For basic, you've got the website linked to above. For exact, you know exactly where you can go.
Sag, chill.
sheesh, this is what I was talking about, bring the rhetoric down and quit attacking everybody who doesn't see, think and feel exactly how you do.
Well no matter what we have increased spendig to the point that even with a deal its likely to be ignaore as the senate works their own spending rules now. Every bill has to be score neutral on budget i spending. But CBO who scores it has to go by the senate figures.The senate can give them a amount in savings form fraud;effciancy etc. the CBO has to take thsoe figures in scoring. Of course it never has comwe true. that is why we continue to boprrow more and more> The there are the special funding such as war; so calledone time spendig such as stimulus;TARP and unemployment increased spending. We will soon have double the deficit since 2008.But its more than the us or greece.Of the euro zone only gernay isn;'t in worse shape thru growth i there economy. But while their defaultig would effect us as badly it wil have a effect o growth in slowing it down even more.So while we may not default still growth is due to be slow and recovery long. Not solving defcits can mean drastc cuts coming and when it gets high like greece facing collpase or drastc cuts if you can borrow even.
But if, after a year of debate and a year and more of implementation, you are still in the dark about PPACA, there is plenty of info-for-newbies available at www.healthcare.gov. They even have an Understand the Law section for people just like you. Maybe you were too busy to follow along. Maybe you tried to pay attention but became distracted by ridiculous right-wing propaganda. No problem. All the information you need is available now on the website. You should check it out.
I am not an attorney, that is true. Most people not directly involved in writing or promulgating complicated legislation are. My worries are based on the comments/explanations I received on a visit to the local Medicare/SS office the last time I was in the States. They hadn't a clue of what the "reform" package was all about, or what it was going to mean to a person on the verge of retirement, like me. It is not a big confidence-builder when the people paid (handsomely) to adminster programs are not able to explain their ramifications. The next time I visit, I'll point them to the link you included, I guess. I'm sure they'll appreciate it as much as I.
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People can get off the train whenever they want. I merely recommend that they wait until it pulls into a station first.
So far, it's been an express to nowhere. Unless you're gay, or Mohammed Karzai.
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It appears likely from the above that all of them would have known more about what they were voting for than you or the average Town Hall Meeting hooligan ever did.
From what above? Your confidence and rhetoric? And the only hooligans we saw on NHK were in Wisconsin shutting down the government.
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Oh dear. PPACA doesn't nationalize anything. There will be approximately zero new public employee union members as its result.
Right. Never has the word "approximate" had more wiggle room.
Always with the UK and Canada. They have actual national health care systems. And while they both in fact provide perfectly good dental and vision care, there are other countries with health care better than ours that do not have such systems at all, and their number is greater than two. The French for example think the British health care system is on par with British cooking -- intolerable. Yet the French have a national health care system of their own and (as you may recall from previous abysmal efforts to attack it) it puts them at or near the top of the list in category after category, while the US is more typically found at or near the bottom among developed countries. And we pay about 50% than they do for the privelege. Why do some people hold out to the last man in defense of low quality at high prices?
1. Always the confusion between health care insurance and health care. It reminds me of the slithering that goes on when people elide "illegal immigrants" to "immigrants" -- like we want to keep Albert Einstein sweating in Juarez.
2. I never attacked the French system. As you have forgotten, I complimented them and even used my own experiences in France with healthcare as an example. What I DID criticize (and continue to do so) was any attempt to black/white compare such diverse countries as the US and France, without taking into account the immense differences in population, geography, culture, transportation, and a multitude of other factors which make any such generallized comparison impractical and largely invalid.
3. See 2, to a degree. No other developed country, for example, has Mexico on its southern border.
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That one actually has George W Bush written all over it.
Well, if Bush is Jupiter, Obama is Alpha Centauri.
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Basic and exact, huh. Sort of like ordering unsweetened tea with sugar. For basic, you've got the website linked to above. For exact, you know exactly where you can go.
Well, you know, I'm not young anymore and not 100% healthy. Mocking me or any citizen for asking for explanations to something as immense and important as a revision of our healthcare system, and then saying "go the website and educate yourself, old man" may be satisfying to some so-called progressive liberals, with their professed concern for the public welfare, but it sounds more like snarky authoritariansim to me. It aso suggests that your lack of understanding of the legislation is at least as profound as the rest of us.
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