Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
People do have a choice. Jump from a bridge, blow your brains out with a gun, take a bunch of pills (your choice), run headlong into a brick wall going as fast as your car will take you (minus seat belts of course), take a trip to Irag and in the middle of the street start singing onward Christian soldiers, you have choices.
See, you do have a choice.
My point was that there are many ways that are painless that are available, but people are not allowed to use them. Most people feel trapped in life because they are also too scared to end it because it's "a horrible way to die".
It's like saying: there is a choice to use drugs... you just have to go into dark and dangerous places to find it.
There is a choice to love someone of the opposite sex, you just have to make sure no one finds out (speaking of the places where it's still prohibited).
Think about a scientist experimenting with human genetics, and some will turn out ok and some will turn out badly damaged. And it would be inhumane of that scientist to expect those who were badly damaged to keep on living. Of course it would be inhumane of him to do these experiments in the first place. But life does it. And no one can blame life because it doesn't have a choice. It just does what it does.
And some people turn out really damaged (either physically or mentally) and living is really hard for them. And it's unfair of others to expect them to live on just like the normal ones.
Since nature makes mistakes and turns out some really bad stuff, there should be a way out (to be merciful)
Yes, it's great to get help and all that. But it's not possible for all to get help. There is no good help available for some problems.
Or take people in the army who want to commit suicide. What is the point of living when they are like animals in a box, doing a few things like eating and sleeping...? And when they want to exit, why not let them?
Why put them on suicide watch and force them to live? And force others to pay for their support unnecessarily?
Is this about vengeance again? Oh, they hurt someone (because life made them to be killers) and now they have to pay for it (even though they didn't really have much say in how they were made).
Many people create killers because of how they treat each other and then blame those for becoming such and then want them to pay for it...to create even more violence then they are already responsible for.
It's like about Hitler. Why was he allowed to come to power? Because people let him. Because people (as a group) had problems. It's easy to just blame him for violence. But the only reason he was able to do it so publicly is because others approved it.
We create bad people by mistreating those around us.
And nature creates bad people by creating people with messed up brain (those we call pscycho paths)
They do not really have a choice, they just turn out how life makes them. And so, we should eliminat them, not punish them. Unless punishment is going to make them better. But I guess this is another topic.
Last edited by LoveWisdom; 10-15-2013 at 01:47 PM..
As other posters have mentioned, we already do have the choice to live or die in the most literal sense... but only if we utilize methodology that has the potential to create terrible havoc and seriously traumatize other people. And that's where I think the problem lies.
Our rights end where others' begin, and I feel that no one has the right to close a city intersection because they jumped off a building, or divert a police department into searching for their body in the woods, or to burn the scene of their suicide permanently into the mind of whichever family member was unlucky enough to find them. If we're going to die, we owe it to other people, both our loved ones and the ones we've never met, to spare them all this if we can. Doctor-assisted suicide would offer a way to do so.
Our loved ones are going to experience tremendous pain and mourn our passing no matter what method we choose, but at least in time they may come to draw a small degree of solace from the fact that our demise was clean and comfortable, and possibly done in a neutral setting they won't see again.
Too much Ayn Rand and associated gobbledygook. Human beings do not have an unfettered right to self-determination, as you yourself would ultimately argue. Ordered liberty demands that all your rights be limited in degrees by the rights, needs, and wants of those around you. Can you name any condition whereunder one might justifiably inflict significant pain and suffering on others solely on the basis of having appointed oneself as the sole and exclusive judge of whether or not to do so? I pretty much don't think you can.
No. My life choices are of a higher priority than those around me, so long as what I do does not physically harm or harass others. If we had to take into account everyone's feelings for every action we take, then nothing would get done. Even further, who appointed someone else as the judge of what I'm allowed to do with my body? Sounds like a bunch of progressive "I know what's better for you than you do" talk to me.
People can stop living anytime they want. Folks commit suicide all the time. No one is forced to live.
I don't believe in assisted suicide. Too much gray area. Exhausted caregivers could influence a sick person to hasten things along. Also, many more potential murder scenarios.
ETA: Suicides are not always gruesome. Just take a handful of the right pills and go to sleep. That's better than a homemade IV drip contraption.
ETA: Suicides are not always gruesome. Just take a handful of the right pills and go to sleep. That's better than a homemade IV drip contraption.
I actually know of a teenage boy who tried to kill himself with pills mixed with alcohol, but it didn't work. He was a resident of a nursing home where I used to work. That failed suicide attempt left him badly brain damaged, barely able to move, and stuck in that nursing home forever. His parents were understandably devastated; for all practical purposes, they had lost the son they knew and loved. But that didn't stop them from staying at his side each and every day.
Hmm. Interesting point. I never thought of those who "saved" a suicide as being selfish, but I see exactly what you're saying. My daughters had a friend in high school, who had a history of severe depression and suicide attempts. One night, after returning from the hospital following an attempt, she finally succeeded in killing herself. Her friends and family were devastated, even while talking about how severe her depression was, and how nothing had been able to help her.
Instead of "saving" her so many times, how different would things have been, if the family had been able to speak openly about death as an option? Maybe they would have been able to find some peace before she died. Maybe the family would not have been torn apart as they dealt with her failed attempts. Maybe, given the opportunity to speak openly and honestly about WHY she felt death was her only option, she would have decided to give life one more try.
No way of knowing now. As I said, this is an interesting and new perspective for me, and not one that will leave my thoughts easily.
Suicide is a long-term solution to what are all but inevitably short-term problems, hence it is almost always a bad idea. And as a member of various networks, the same extra-personal responsibilities and obligations that keep you from burning these other people with lit cigarettes imply an obligation and responsibility to preserve them as well from the probably worse and certainly more enduring pain of your self-inflicted death. The exceptions of course are the obvious case of a choice between death and horrible suffering. Most people would make that distinction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by non-creep
If you've ever suffered with long term mental illness, suicide is most certainly not a permanent solution to a so-called temporary problem. Just because you cannot see someone's pain, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Some people simply cannot live fulfilling lives and either end up destitute, homeless or incarcerated when they have no support network to turn to. It is very judgmental of people to dismiss such pain, just because it's not tangible.
Euthanasia should be legal and it should be administered painlessly to those who would benefit from it and cannot be cured and do not wish to be treated.
When we have the ability to cure mental illnesses, take care of the poor with dignity then maybe I'll get back to you with a different answer.
I'm with non-creep. In short, "horrible suffering" is subjective. Only the sufferer knows the extent of their pain.
That having been said, there are depths of even situational depression that can so compromise a person's judgment that they are really not in a position to decide anything objectively or competently. For many of these, the choice of suicide at not be as "necessary" as they perceive. If a person has sought treatment and despite their best efforts are still in an intolerable state, I would not fault them for checking out. This raises all sorts of other questions/issues, of course, and I am not going into all of that here. Just saying we can't say in many cases whose suffering justifies suicide.
I used to think suicide was incredibly selfish. Now I see how much of the pain of suicide loss to survivors is self- or socially-imposed and not actually caused by the deceased. That is our own burden to bear and reconcile. If I ever got to the point of suicide, I would certainly leave a note explaining my choice an absolving my loved ones of any responsibility. But from there, it's on the survivors how they deal with the loss. That may sound cold, but at some point we have to accept that our lives are ultimately our own, even as they intersect with others'.
I'm with non-creep. In short, "horrible suffering" is subjective. Only the sufferer knows the extent of their pain.
The circumstance of "horrible suffering" was categorically excluded. As in the precise definition of it is a matter for some different discussion. It ought simply to be off the table at this point in this discussion, yet it persists in resurecting itself in zombie-like fashion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slithytoves
That having been said, there are depths of even situational depression that can so compromise a person's judgment that they are really not in a position to decide anything objectively or competently.
The very people who should be in charge of making life-and-death decisions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slithytoves
I used to think suicide was incredibly selfish. Now I see how much of the pain of suicide loss to survivors is self- or socially-imposed and not actually caused by the deceased. That is our own burden to bear and reconcile.
The blame for pain and suffering among survivor-victims belongs with the survivor-victims?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slithytoves
If I ever got to the point of suicide, I would certainly leave a note explaining my choice an absolving my loved ones of any responsibility.
Suicide notes almost always make matters worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slithytoves
But from there, it's on the survivors how they deal with the loss. That may sound cold, but at some point we have to accept that our lives are ultimately our own, even as they intersect with others'.
It's worse than cold. Most suicides create huge emotional gashes in the lives of dozens of other people. If you suspect that you are too weak to keep yourself from doing that, it's time to get help.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
