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To women in the same economic bracket. What I'm getting at is that women tend to marry in the same economic class as men or men above them in terms of economic class. Where as men tend to marry women who make less or roughly the same but not more then them. This also explains the reason why men tend to make more then there wives.
Every marriage I've seen where the wife cuts back her hours or stops working the guy ends up working more to make up for the income loss. I'm going by what I've personally seen your and others on here mileage may very in what you have personally seen.
A lot of people will never agree with that statement. Since were talking about different events that happened decades apart.
Yet for all this opening up the job fields women went into in mass before feminism teaching, nursing, etc are still the same jobs most women enter into in mass today. So the more things change the more the stay the same. Which was what I was getting at in my last post.
Again I got to question how much of this is due feminism and how much is due to the suffrage movement? Or even events prior to the Suffrage movement. We had women who were going to school and just starting to become physicians before the civil war broke out as an example. We in the US have had women's colleges around for well over a century now. I think the problem in here lies in the fact that a lot of supporters of feminism try to lump any and every single thing possible that happened to benefit women throughout history as being part of feminism regardless of how far removed time wise things occurred. The Women's Suffrage Movement being a prime example. No. I don't consider them the same thing since they happened decades apart. Now with all that said do I think everything was just always fine and dandy for women in history? The answer to that is no. I do however think feminism gets way to much credit than it actually deserves.
its seems there are many different views and definitions of feminism. If you want to split suffrage and feminisms the truth is while laws were being introduced and women were gaining more legal rights women still had not achieved application of those rights or even passage of those bills until second wave feminism. The equal rights amendment has still yet to be ratified.
Societal attitudes change much slower than what is written on paper so before feminism, although legally women had equal opportunities, employers and the powers that be had/have loop holes to get around such things. We still see it today.
I can remember when jobs were listed by men's jobs and women's jobs. I can remember being, as Jrz said, scorned, harassed and passed over for particular responsibilities in a male dominated field because of my gender. As opportunities for women came slowly many younger women became complacent with the status quo and didn't have the fight to buck the system for equal standing and respect in the work place. That has been a struggle strong feminists have been fighting since the 1960s. We are now seeing that fight in the STEM fields. There was recently some controversy over such.
There is a great difference in being able to go to school (girls school) and being able to go to any school. There is a difference in starting your own women medical school and being allowed to attended a mainstream men's medical school. It wasn't until the 70's that laws were put into place barring gender discrimination in education (medical school).
I'm not sure why you can not see how a few women blazing a trail in certain fields (although still not equally respected) is not the same as being 100% allowed, accepted and respected in those fields. Or how because in the past 50 years women have not dominated high end STEM field means nothing has changed for women's career advancement since the 1950's. Having the legal right and opportunity and support and respect to pursue any academic and/or career endeavor one choses is a result of the struggles of feminism thru the years. This does not mean that every woman wants to be a rocket scientist, CEO, or brain surgeon. It means she can. The majority of women are still inclined to be drawn to more traditional jobs but that is in no way a failure. The difference here, since feminism, is that if a woman choses to become a teacher or nurse she is now paid equal wages, she has the opportunity for advancement, she cant be let go if she marries or becomes pregnant.
Not all men go into STEM fields either. Some men choose careers in teaching, nursing, child care, beauty salons, secretarial work, social work, or even being a SAHP, is that somehow a failure? While men have always had the legal right and opportunity to due these things it has not been accepted by society as a whole and still isn't entirely accepted so we don't see a significant percentage of men in these professions.
To try and put it in perspective a movement to change attitudes so men are not discriminated against, harassed, scorned and belittled and can feel free and comfortable to pursue these personal choices might be as equivalent to suffrage vs. feminism as we can imagine.
I think feminism has peaked, today most jobs are paying people the market rate depending on what the function or negotiation comes down to.
When I was managing a group of 5 people the salaries really vary but I never gave a man or woman more or less money. It was based on their role and market rate.
I hate to say it but if a woman was at a job for 5 years and gets a 2% raise annually. Than a man joins the firm for the same position will get paid much higher and it is not in my control that the candidate comes in at a much higher rate than what someone with more seniority is making.
You better off quitting a job every 2-5 yrs than hoping for some parity through raises.
Some men choose careers in teaching, nursing, child care, beauty salons, secretarial work, social work, or even being a SAHP, is that somehow a failure? While men have always had the legal right and opportunity to due these things it has not been accepted by society as a whole and still isn't entirely accepted so we don't see a significant percentage of men in these professions.
Socially accepted or not, speaking as a man, we (most of us) simply don't have a desire to involve ourselves in these occupations.
You do realize men and women are different right? In some cases our differences are quite stark.
Women are still underrepresented in Politics. Who are making the decisions for us? men. What sways our choices? The media. How does media portray women? The majority of shows/movies portray us as constantly seeking romance, seeking a male companion or sexual items. We are NOT viewed as protagonists. IF we are a protagonist, it is a hyper-sexualized superhero.
Most women in politics are ridiculed and scrutinized for what they wear/how they look/how much cleavage is shown/etc./who takes care of their children while they are working/etc. etc. etc.
There are over 50% of women populating the US, why are we not running for office? We need to change the media and show young girls we CAN make strides.
If Feminism is viewed as "not working" and negative, we will ALWAYS be underrepresented and our voice will not be heard.
Women are still underrepresented in Politics. Who are making the decisions for us? men. What sways our choices? The media. How does media portray women? The majority of shows/movies portray us as constantly seeking romance, seeking a male companion or sexual items. We are NOT viewed as protagonists. IF we are a protagonist, it is a hyper-sexualized superhero.
There are over 50% of women populating the US, why are we not running for office? We need to change the media and show young girls we CAN make strides.
If Feminism is viewed as "not working" and negative, we will ALWAYS be underrepresented and our voice will not be heard.
You can't complain about not having enough women in politics if the majority of women are choosing to vote for male candidates. There's nothing stopping the female gender from running for office. If women aren't choosing to run for office than that's just the way it is.
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Most women in politics are ridiculed and scrutinized for what they wear/how they look/how much cleavage is shown/etc./who takes care of their children while they are working/etc. etc. etc.
Being ridiculed and scrutinized happens all the time in politics. Both male and female politicians are scrutinized and ridiculed. If a person can't handle criticism than they shouldn't be a politician.
Socially accepted or not, speaking as a man, we (most of us) simply don't have a desire to involve ourselves in these occupations.
You do realize men and women are different right? In some cases our differences are quite stark.
Of course, you do realize I was responding to the argument that feminism was a failure because only a small percentage of women are in STEM fields.
Actually you helped make my point. Although most men do not desire to pursue particular field there some men who do, just as some women are drawn to STEM fields. Feminism was a success because now both men and women can involve themselves in any occupation not only legally but with less negativity and scorn from society.
You do realize men and women are different right? In some cases our differences are quite stark.
That's true, although you do see more overlapping in California.
The thing people fail to appreciate about group behavior and abilities is that something like difficult occupations (or intelligence for that matter) really matters more on the fringes. Averages don't matter so much, it's the number of people a standard deviation or two out that matter. That explains why female math skills are roughly the same as male (or even higher at certain ages), but there are extremely few female mathematicians of any note.
In terms of the basic question on whether feminism is a failure, let's say that in terms of statutes involving gender, I'd say that it's too early to tell. If, in a few hundred years, a culture without universal suffrage dominates those that do (or they just flat disappear), then I'd go with it being an abject failure. To pick at that example for a second, female voting has probably had a more profound effect on politics and public policy than any other single change. Darwinism in the grand scale will tell us whether that was a good idea or not.
Little blast from the past for you youngsters. I started living on my own back in the 1960s in Manhattan. Nice corporate job, my own apartment all by myself.
Many a time I would finish work, didn't feel like going home and cooking, and so went out to a restaurant to eat dinner ALONE. I was denied tables because I was a FEMALE ALONE. Did they think I was a hooker on the prowl? I came from WORK dressed in work attire. I did not want a DATE just to EAT DINNER at a restaurant. Totally infuriated me. At the very least, I got very bad service, and STRANGE MEN asking me if they could join me. GET LOST. I am here because I am HUNGRY, not because I want a MAN.
Feminism? Do you want to go back to THOSE days and attitudes today? I certainly don't for myself as an old lady today, nor for my younger sisters.
. I am here because I am HUNGRY, not because I want a MAN.
Feminism? Do you want to go back to THOSE days and attitudes today? I certainly don't for myself as an old lady today, nor for my younger sisters.
That's the interesting thing about feminism, it requires a rule of law and a monopoly on violence by the government to work. What you might think of as expanded rights for women (including the right to be left alone) is not a natural state of affairs.
That's the interesting thing about feminism, it requires a rule of law and a monopoly on violence by the government to work. What you might think of as expanded rights for women (including the right to be left alone) is not a natural state of affairs.
It's "not a natural state of affairs" only because men have kept women in subservient legal and social positions, until relatively recently.
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