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I always think of this story when people bring up cut off dates. I can't find it right now, maybe you can Google it. Anyway this couple in Texas WANTED their pregnancy, but at 20 weeks the wife started bleeding, went to the doctor and she was dilating. After several tests and attempts to stop it nothing worked. The doctor suggested an abortion but with the newly passed cut off date of 20 weeks the doctors wouldn't do it. She was technically still within the legal range, but it was too close, so they sent her home to labor for days until it finally came out. She was put through unnecessary emotional and physical distress because of an arbitrary cut off date.
This is a "life of the mother" situation, which is a whole other topic than rape/incest. With "life of the mother" it's an either/or situation.
To compare, say two people are trapped under a concrete slab in a building collapse. Saving either would require shifting the slab which would kill the other. More rubble is coming down, so if they stay both will die within minutes. The single first-responder on the scene can either save one or do nothing and they both die. If he saves one, but the other dies in the process, is that murder? What if one merely has a foot trapped but the other is unconscious and will probably die anyway?
Same with the situation you described. It's a bad situation and unbelievably sad, but the solution is clear: the fetus will most likely die anyway, so save the mother. Any law that prevents this is in itself unethical and cruel.
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Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny
They can't answer you, because there is no logical reason for it. If they consider it murder, then the circumstance of the pregnancy shouldn't matter, yet it does.
I answered the first part of the query in post #28. No one has answered the second part, and I do not think it even possible to answer it with any logic.
Is it acceptable for a pregnant woman to abuse drugs (legal or illegal) and cause permanent damage to the fetus? Do a little research of "fetal alcohol syndrome" or "neonatal abstinence syndrome" before answering.
If it's "anyone's business" to tell a pregnant woman she can't abuse drugs, then you are telling her what to do with her body in order to protect the future child. Going beyond this is just a matter of degree.
It's actually not illegal for pregnant women to drink, smoke or use drugs (prescription or illegal) . Are all of those things you're strongly told not to do during pregnancy? Yes, but it's not mandated.
Is it acceptable for a pregnant woman to abuse drugs (legal or illegal) and cause permanent damage to the fetus? Do a little research of "fetal alcohol syndrome" or "neonatal abstinence syndrome" before answering.
If it's "anyone's business" to tell a pregnant woman she can't abuse drugs, then you are telling her what to do with her body in order to protect the future child. Going beyond this is just a matter of degree.
dude I'm not telling anyone what to do. That's my whole point. A blanket no women can have a abortion is projecting YOUR OWN BELIEFS on others. It's not your right to do that. Who made you king of the apes?
Mostvpeople shouldn't be having kids until they are actually prepared to have kids. You want to stop abortions? Great. You're going to have a bunch of crazy 18-20 year olds who are going to neglect their kids or punch them to death or drown or strangle them. All because they can't deal with what it takes to be a good parent. I would say let her have a abortion if she wants. Sorry but this is a personal choice to keep or get rid of a future child and it's not your or my place to say if that person is allowed to.
This is a "life of the mother" situation, which is a whole other topic than rape/incest. With "life of the mother" it's an either/or situation.
To compare, say two people are trapped under a concrete slab in a building collapse. Saving either would require shifting the slab which would kill the other. More rubble is coming down, so if they stay both will die within minutes. The single first-responder on the scene can either save one or do nothing and they both die. If he saves one, but the other dies in the process, is that murder? What if one merely has a foot trapped but the other is unconscious and will probably die anyway?
Same with the situation you described. It's a bad situation and unbelievably sad, but the solution is clear: the fetus will most likely die anyway, so save the mother. Any law that prevents this is in itself unethical and cruel.
I answered the first part of the query in post #28. No one has answered the second part, and I do not think it even possible to answer it with any logic.
Actually in this instance, the life if the mother was not threatened. She was healthy, but her cervix continued to dilate and would not support the pregnancy. They tried to stop it, but failed. Her mental and emotional state did endure unnecessary trauma and she was also subjected to physical pain for days on end, because they could not abort and they could not do anything to speed up the labor, so she just had to deal with it until it ended which is barbaric and inhumane.
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Originally Posted by Electrician4you
dude I'm not telling anyone what to do. That's my whole point. A blanket no women can have a abortion is projecting YOUR OWN BELIEFS on others. It's not your right to do that. Who made you king of the apes?
Mostvpeople shouldn't be having kids until they are actually prepared to have kids. You want to stop abortions? Great. You're going to have a bunch of crazy 18-20 year olds who are going to neglect their kids or punch them to death or drown or strangle them. All because they can't deal with what it takes to be a good parent. I would say let her have a abortion if she wants. Sorry but this is a personal choice to keep or get rid of a future child and it's not your or my place to say if that person is allowed to.
You'll also have an increase in self induced abortions, infanticide, the foster system will be even more burdened, welfare use will increase and there will be a rise in domestic abuse and rape. It's just an all around terrible idea.
To back up and directly answer the actual debate questions, with the assumption that this is an anti-abortion world where all abortions are illegal except for cases of rape or incest:
[1] Incest: She would have to get the related father to admit to act, and/or file a criminal complaint. This would happen at the time she applied for the exception to any "no abortions" laws. "Proof" would take the form of sworn statements. A realistic check against lying under oath would be a DNA test performed on the removed embryo/fetus after the procedure, with the understanding that anyone found to be lying would be prosecuted for murder. Rape: The same method used to start a criminal investigation. The woman would file a complaint and undergo a rape exam after the incident. Assuming that "morning after" procedures wouldn't be automatic in this world, the criminal complaint would serve as proof to obtain the abortion later if desired. If the woman doesn't report the rape immediately absolute proof is much harder. She would still have to swear and file an official complaint of rape without a rape kit, and the local police would have to be convinced to open a criminal case before an abortion is obtained.
On the surface, neither of these requirements would be overly restrictive in this hypothetical world. Either everything would be in place before the pregnancy was known about (rape kit), or could be obtained within a matter of days afterward. Abortions would be so rare in this world so "abortion clinics" would not exist. The abortion would be performed locally by a local doctor, and could happen even quicker than in current anti-abortion states where traveling hundreds of miles to the nearest clinic is normal.
[2]
This is what I answered earlier. There is no moral, ethical, or logical way to claim that abortion is murder, and that abortion is legal under special circumstances, without simultaneously saying that murder is legal under those same circumstances.
As the very definition of murder is, "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another", saying that "murder is legal" is nonsensical.
Actually these same "Christians" have no problem murdering people. It's quite ironic. Those most opposed to abortion typically fight for extreme gun rights like "stand your ground" laws, they love the death penalty, they love going to war and blowing up people, and they have made hundreds of attacks on Planned Parenthood resulting in dozens of deaths and injuries. They like to say that fetuses are innocent, but then that goes right back to hypocrisy, because even a rape or incest fetus is innocent **shrug**.
I believe every woman has the right to decide if she wants to keep a baby or not. People should not be so judgemental. Even more so if they have been raped.. why should they have to live with it for the rest of there life? Reminded of it everyday which will probs end in them resenting the child in some way. Every individual woman/man has the right to decide what's happens with there body. Key word being "it's theirs"
Abortion is here to stay. Republicans need to just accept they lost on that issue just like they lost on the gay marriage issue.
They won't because that is how they get votes. Those topics are just devices they use, they don't actually care about protecting fetuses or the"sanctity of marriage." Now they will add Syrian refugees and Muslims to the fear mongering tactics.
6 weeks is NOT a long enough time for many women to do all these things:
1. reasonably find out they are pregnant - not all women are "like clockwork" and realize they might be pregnant after being late a couple days
2. get in to see a doctor to verify the pregnancy, especially if they don't have a regular doctor or ob/gyn already
3. to find a doctor / clinic willing to perform the procedure
4. to get the money together if they don't already have the savings.
Plus, under circumstances of rape, women have plenty of things to deal with, let alone whether or not she got pregnant.
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Originally Posted by moionfire
And pro lifers deliberately create waiting periods so that women have to wait longer to get the abortion.
Yeah, I've heard of some "abortion clinics" that use any tactic they can to send to visitors back, ultimately to get to that period where they can say "it's too late!".
If the state has the authority to wage war and execute criminals then it also has the authority to allow women to kill their unborn children in the womb. One could argue that in a society with a strong social safety net, the state not only has the authority to allow it, it has a responsibility to do so. But let's not allow people to avoid the moral implications of this act by pretending that they are not in fact killing a human being. The killing of a human being is not always unjustified.
In my opinion abortion should be cheap/subsidized and encouraged in the first trimester, expensive and discouraged in the second trimester, and illegal except in the case of medical emergency or gross deformity in the third. It is right and proper for a state with a redistributive economy to allow abortion but the further along in development the unborn child is, the more morally dicey the procedure becomes, and that should be reflected in the law.
I have my own personal opinion of the character of women who would practice abortion as a method of birth control but at the end of the day that is between the woman committing the act and her god or conscience, particularly in the early stages of development. Where rape and incest are involved I would not alter my timeline. There would be ample opportunity in all pregnancies to receive an abortion regardless of whether ape or incest were involved.
Last edited by Fifty Seven; 12-07-2015 at 10:46 AM..
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