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Well perhaps that's the problem between our positions on this topic. I have seen it personally, I take the issue personally because it is something I have tried to work to improve. I am looking at real people that I actually knew and worked with and whose homes I visited.
It seems to me that you are looking at a concept.
And while I don't like or agree with your opinion, there's no personal attack here. In fact, in two posts I said I agreed with you to an extent.
Perhaps you should ignore my posts in the future, because my viewpoint on this topic will not change.
I suggest you Google "is there equal opportunity in getting into college", and read the first dozen articles that pop up. That's what I tend to do when I want to research something, rather than cherry pick looking for articles that agree with my viewpoint.
And you assume I haven't because I am not jumping up and down in 100% agreement with you?
Big assumption. Don't assume personal characteristics of posters whom you DON'T KNOW. It destroys any credibility you have because you are no longer having a discussion about the topic and instead insinuating that only those who have experienced exactly what you have and AGREE with your opinions have a valid argument.
Suppose I had the exact same experience as you and DISAGREED with you? How would you try to insult/degrade my opinion then?
And I suggest you check out the statistics on community college or internet-based colleges. Opportunities for ANYONE, regardless of secondary education circumstance or GED. Most CC have remedial classes as standard course offerings because lately a lot of HS graduates cannot read or write English, along with many ESL students.
And you assume I haven't because I am not jumping up and down in 100% agreement with you?
Big assumption. Don't assume personal characteristics of posters whom you DON'T KNOW. It destroys any credibility you have because you are no longer having a discussion about the topic and instead insinuating that only those who have experienced exactly what you have and AGREE with your opinions have a valid argument.
Suppose I had the exact same experience as you and DISAGREED with you? How would you try to insult/degrade my opinion then?
And I suggest you check out the statistics on community college or internet-based colleges. Opportunities for ANYONE, regardless of secondary education circumstance or GED. Most CC have remedial classes as standard course offerings because lately a lot of HS graduates cannot read or write English, along with many ESL students.
Opportunities exist for those who CHOOSE THEM.
We are at an impasse. You have your opinion. I have mine. No need to continue an exchange.
I would think that any reasonable person, driving through any American ghetto, would readily understand the basis for affirmative action legislation. All these years after the fact of that legislation, we still have an ingrained racism which drives speculation regarding it's "fairness." Why do I see that speculation as racism? Simply because those who question the fairness of such policies are usually found to be the same ones who have prospered in the old exclusive system. Through the years I've been posting here, this line of questioning has been persistent. It's usually couched in slightly different terms, but overall, it is the same deluge of anecdotal "evidence" being offered up as a counter to a perceived injustice.
I'm old, white, and male, I worked my entire life, I was gainfully employed through those years of affirmative action implementation, I retired ten years ago and have never felt the slightest impact from that body of law, so, when I read the words of those who prospered in America and still see themselves as victims of such laws I can only wonder why they feel so downtrodden. Discrimination was rampant when I first entered the workforce in 1962, not only black people were looked down upon, I was once asked to vote on whether "we" wanted a Japanese man to be on our crew. A woman wouldn't have had the benefit of the vote. Nor would a black man.
When any of us question the long standing effects of discrimination in America we are simply engaging in foolish speculation. I worked my last twenty years in a very large company, at one time that company was all white and mostly male, women were driven out after WW ll, by 2007 it was a very mixed demographic, thanks to our modern social views backed by federal law. Life is hard enough without looking in the other guy's cereal bowl, and wondering if the quantity is equal to your own, especially if you have had all the cereal you could eat most of your life. Some will never be content, it just isn't in their makeup, others will recount their own grief as a perceived victim, and still others are immersed in a deep hatred of the minority population. We won't ever be a nation of contented souls, black, white, woman, man, and a ton of other distinctions will present separate agendas, we can accept that as our uniquely American dilemma, or look for that perfect place where only you are being served..
Where did I say anything was a breeze? You are making tremendous assumptions as well as contributing to the idea that it is not possible, pretermined fate, that you can never better yourself.
It's possible and doable, if you truly want to do it. But it takes effort and time and work and commitment. If you choose NOT to do it, you shouldn't be rewarded when others have put in the work that you did not.
I see one problem here, you are assuming that all those who benefitted by affirmative action did nothing but collect the benefit while sleeping. A foot in the door isn't the same as a Goldilocks environment wherein the dinner is on the table, bed is made, fire going, and-- all the lucky recipient has to do in sit back and enjoy it all.
Have you failed to prosper because of those laws? have you been deprived of the chance to prosper? If not then you can enjoy the fact that you didn't have a rocky road because someone else was given a leg up. When seeking a "fair solution" to the long years of government blessed discrimination, it was a no brainer that some would suffer unduly, and that happened on both sides of the question.
Blacks on the job suffered the incessant ridicule from those whites who felt cheated by the black's preferential hiring treatment, but the macro view was that affirmative action did indeed make a difference, it got millions off public relief, and it began to have a positive impact on how minorities were perceived in the workplace. Those who focused on the problems caused by that body of law, for some strange reason, never seemed bothered by the entirety of unfairness in the plight of blacks prior to favorable legislation for blacks. When looking for a perfect solution, you have to come up with something to that effect in order to be considered part of the solution, or, you can be part of the problem, it's a choice..
I see one problem here, you are assuming that all those who benefitted by affirmative action did nothing but collect the benefit while sleeping. A foot in the door isn't the same as a Goldilocks environment wherein the dinner is on the table, bed is made, fire going, and-- all the lucky recipient has to do in sit back and enjoy it all.
Have you failed to prosper because of those laws? have you been deprived of the chance to prosper? If not then you can enjoy the fact that you didn't have a rocky road because someone else was given a leg up. When seeking a "fair solution" to the long years of government blessed discrimination, it was a no brainer that some would suffer unduly, and that happened on both sides of the question.
Blacks on the job suffered the incessant ridicule from those whites who felt cheated by the black's preferential hiring treatment, but the macro view was that affirmative action did indeed make a difference, it got millions off public relief, and it began to have a positive impact on how minorities were perceived in the workplace. Those who focused on the problems caused by that body of law, for some strange reason, never seemed bothered by the entirety of unfairness in the plight of blacks prior to favorable legislation for blacks. When looking for a perfect solution, you have to come up with something to that effect in order to be considered part of the solution, or, you can be part of the problem, it's a choice..
"Opportunities exist for those who CHOOSE THEM."
I completely agree. It is far too easy to think every recipient of AA is a complete bum and can't even take advantage of the opportunities offered them. Just getting the opportunity to sink or swim is invaluable.
At one level, I'm much less concerned that one opportunity might have been denied to a majority member because of AA - that person really doesn't KNOW that the AA is undeserving or that THEY are the best for the position. Maybe (collective) you should also feel as much outrage at all the "favoritism" within the majority that you seem to be unaware of? All the relatives hiring lazy sons, sons IL, and nephews (maaaaybe a few females thrown in for good measure) - and all the idiots that get into Yale, Harvard, etc. as legacies? At least AA has good intentions and a good track record where general nepotism just keeps the status quo going.
The bigger point is that some groups have reaped many advantages...others are just now starting to see theirs. If you're no longer at the beginning of the line, maybe it's because you never really deserved to be in the first place?
I see one problem here, you are assuming that all those who benefitted by affirmative action did nothing but collect the benefit while sleeping. A foot in the door isn't the same as a Goldilocks environment wherein the dinner is on the table, bed is made, fire going, and-- all the lucky recipient has to do in sit back and enjoy it all.
Have you failed to prosper because of those laws? have you been deprived of the chance to prosper? If not then you can enjoy the fact that you didn't have a rocky road because someone else was given a leg up. When seeking a "fair solution" to the long years of government blessed discrimination, it was a no brainer that some would suffer unduly, and that happened on both sides of the question.
Blacks on the job suffered the incessant ridicule from those whites who felt cheated by the black's preferential hiring treatment, but the macro view was that affirmative action did indeed make a difference, it got millions off public relief, and it began to have a positive impact on how minorities were perceived in the workplace. Those who focused on the problems caused by that body of law, for some strange reason, never seemed bothered by the entirety of unfairness in the plight of blacks prior to favorable legislation for blacks. When looking for a perfect solution, you have to come up with something to that effect in order to be considered part of the solution, or, you can be part of the problem, it's a choice..
"Opportunities exist for those who CHOOSE THEM."
If someone is hired because they are qualified it's not AA no matter what race they are.
If someone is hired who is less qualified than other candidates because of their race, that's AA. And someone who needed a job, was qualified was then DENIED a job for someone LESS qualified.
And opportunities exist for those who put in the work and choose them.
Why are so many posters making this personal? Leave the personal assumptions OUT OF THE DISCUSSION.
If you can't have a discussion without them, you have no argument.
I completely agree. It is far too easy to think every recipient of AA is a complete bum and can't even take advantage of the opportunities offered them. Just getting the opportunity to sink or swim is invaluable.
At one level, I'm much less concerned that one opportunity might have been denied to a majority member because of AA - that person really doesn't KNOW that the AA is undeserving or that THEY are the best for the position. Maybe (collective) you should also feel as much outrage at all the "favoritism" within the majority that you seem to be unaware of? All the relatives hiring lazy sons, sons IL, and nephews (maaaaybe a few females thrown in for good measure) - and all the idiots that get into Yale, Harvard, etc. as legacies? At least AA has good intentions and a good track record where general nepotism just keeps the status quo going.
The bigger point is that some groups have reaped many advantages...others are just now starting to see theirs. If you're no longer at the beginning of the line, maybe it's because you never really deserved to be in the first place?
The problem I have is that Jews in particular were once explicitly limited by numerical quotas. AA seems as a method to back into the same result. People say that we are less than two percent of the population and yet are present in the universities and professions in much bigger numbers and that somehow it's unfair. It's the result of a culture that demands accomplishment.
I completely agree. It is far too easy to think every recipient of AA is a complete bum and can't even take advantage of the opportunities offered them. Just getting the opportunity to sink or swim is invaluable.
At one level, I'm much less concerned that one opportunity might have been denied to a majority member because of AA - that person really doesn't KNOW that the AA is undeserving or that THEY are the best for the position. Maybe (collective) you should also feel as much outrage at all the "favoritism" within the majority that you seem to be unaware of? All the relatives hiring lazy sons, sons IL, and nephews (maaaaybe a few females thrown in for good measure) - and all the idiots that get into Yale, Harvard, etc. as legacies? At least AA has good intentions and a good track record where general nepotism just keeps the status quo going.
The bigger point is that some groups have reaped many advantages...others are just now starting to see theirs. If you're no longer at the beginning of the line, maybe it's because you never really deserved to be in the first place?
So it's not about equality? It's about *raising* people up to *push down* other people?
Except I made no assumptions about you or your opinions.
As I said, we are at an impasse. You have your opinion. I have mine. No need to continue an exchange.
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