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Sometimes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. When someone jumps the White House fence, or, when attending school acts like a cat, meowing and biting, at least some red flags are flying.
A small amount of confinement may convince others to seek help before they hurt themselves or others.
I'm not saying we should do nothing. I'm saying that we can't charge someone for a crime that didn't actually commit yet. If there were obvious signs about how dangerous the Parkland shooter was, it wasn't like they could give him life imprisonment before he committed the crime.
Sometimes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. When someone jumps the White House fence, or, when attending school acts like a cat, meowing and biting, at least some red flags are flying.
A small amount of confinement may convince others to seek help before they hurt themselves or others.
I'm not saying we should do nothing. I'm saying that we can't charge someone for a crime that didn't actually commit yet. If there were obvious signs about how dangerous the Parkland shooter was, it wasn't like they could give him life imprisonment before he committed the crime.
To further clarify, there are instances where someone showing planning to do harm is charged and convicted. But the sentence isn't the same as if they had actually carried out the crime.
Mental health providers have long know that this would become a problem. When deinstitulization occured thousands of patients were release from state hospitals with out adequate treatment and hospitalizing someone who is a threat to the community has been made very difficult. Even if they are hospitalized the hospitals are unlikely to keep them for more than 30 days because of the failure to be reimmbursed. In many of these violent offenses there were warning signs but nothing could be done for these violent offenders for the long run.government agencies will denie this to the hilt but watch and see what happens. It is all about money. Inpatient psychiatric care is expensive and although we see what the alternative is the government has done little to change the laws. If these were politicians who were getting shot this would be a whole different story.
Never make it easier for the government to lock you up especially over public safety and the potential, of may be, could be.
If the government has that power and considers anyone even the slightest threat, they will pick them up and haul them off.
I agree. Imagine if an extreme Democrat was in the White House and their desired legacy was to remove guns from every law abiding citizen. Imagine if the thought process was (it actually is in some cases) "Oh you have an AR15, that means that you are a mass shooter just waiting for a chance to snap and go on a shooting spree". Would the Gov. take away the guns and lock that person up because it is obvious that if someone needs to own a "military style assault weapon" they must have a screw loose...
The thing is in most mass shootings, terrorist attacks etc.. the red flag were there and either passed on or when investigated there is only so much law enforcement can do.
We can start by holding judges accountable. A few weeks ago in my area we had a police officer that was serving a warrant murdered. The loser that shot him had 114 prior charges against him including illegal drugs, illegal guns, assault and the list goes on and on. He was a violent career criminal with a bad temper yet the liberal judges that he was brought before gave him chance after chance and reduced his times in jail.
There is another case happening right now and the guy is still on the loose. A career criminal from NH was supposed to come back to MA. to face gun and drug charges but instead he choose to shoot and kill a deputy in NH, steal his cruiser, rob a convenience store and he disappeared.
In both cases the judges went easy on these career criminals. Why? The only reason I can think of is the jails and prisons are full and it is costing the state a lot of money so it is better to let these guys go with reduced bail and or reduced sentences.
This is putting the public at risk. If these criminals are wiling to murder cops what else are they capable of if you or I cross their paths?
I say if someone commits crimes they should go to prison. If the prisons are over crowded we need to build more. Most people have a choice and they make a conscious decision to break the law and when they do and they are caught they should face the consequences.
If not then why do we bother to have laws at all?
Two massacres, two days, one with a gun, one with a van. On Sunday, April 22, Travis Reinking killed three people at the Waffle House, in the Nashville, Tennessee area. On Monday, April 23, Alek Minassian rented a van and plowed up a crowded Toronto sidewalk, killing nine or ten. In both cases, the alleged perpetrators were deeply troubled, if not psychotic.
Travis Reinking - Nashville Gunman
Mr. Reinking jumped the White House fence less than a year ago, attempting to arrange a rendezvous with President Trump. Criminal charges were dismissed after completing criminal service at a Baptist Church link He previously expressed the thought that Taylor Swift was stalking him. And we have not yet heard from people who knew him from his past.
The focus has been on how Mr. Reinking was able to get his guns back. While that is important, it matters less than why he was at liberty in the first place. Jumping the White House fence is not the work of a normal person.
Alek Minassian - Toronto Van-man
According to the National Post Toronto van attack suspect Alek Minassian article, one of Mr. Minassian's classmates, Alexander Alexandrovitch, a former student at Thornlea Secondary School, which Minassian attended, reported that his former classmate stood out for his odd behavior. He stated: “I had classes with him. He was mentally unstable back then. He was known to meow like a cat and try to bite people, this is one sad and confusing story.”
What They and Others Like Him Have in Common
Add these two to the list, which includes:
Dylan Roofe (Charleston church massacre);
Devin Kelley (Texas Church Massacre);
Esteban Santiago (killed six people at Fort Lauderdale International Airport);
Adam Lanza (Sandy Hook massacre);
Jared Lochner (tried to kill Representative Gifford, killed many others;
James Holmes (Colorado movie theater massacre;
The people involved in all of these killings were well-known to authority. It was obvious to all that knew them that none could function in society. Devin Kelley and Esteban Santiago were discharged from the military because of mental illness and violence.
De-institutionalization was a well-intentioned program. It was supposed to convert inhumane and, for the patient ineffective confinement into treatment in the community. This April 2, 1972 article, which I remembered reading, The Patients Can Walk Out At Any Time at Bronx State Mental Hospital(link) made the case for de-institutionalization. Unfortunately few were as motivated as Israel Zwerling, and most looked at the process as a way of saving money.
We need to make it far easier to incarcerate or forcibly institutionalize people. Certainly the Nashville and Toronto slayers would not have been walking around before deinstitutionalization. The mental health system is not doing a good job of keeping these people under control. While the status quo ante before mass de-institutionalization was inhumane to the patients, it did keep the country safe from the lunatics. Perhaps the balance needs to be tipped more in favor of the public than the lunatics.
We can work at improving the humanity, and where appropriate the therapeutic nature of these centers. But we were safer with these people locked up than out loose.
All English/European names, so they are OK and this too will pass.
Never make it easier for the government to lock you up especially over public safety and the potential, of may be, could be.
If the government has that power and considers anyone even the slightest threat, they will pick them up and haul them off.
But they already do ... Just not in the name of protecting citizens.
There won't be much the average joe can find online but for those of you who have access to criminal case history or law enforcement intelligence?
Research the phenomena of what happens to constitutional & miranda rights during a Federal Task Force investigation involving deputized state and local law enforcement. Start with the investigations that were initiated as "undercover".
People are picked up, hauled off & locked up who have not committed any crime & who have never expressed any animosity for their fellow human beings. Not verbally, not in writing, not online; never. No history of violence. Not even a parking ticket.
Bail Bond? Denied. No escape history, not a flight risk; just denied.
Right to remain silent? Expect to stay locked up.
Right to have an attorney present? Only inmates are allowed calls to/visits from/USPS mail from an attorney. If you were never booked in anywhere; you are not an inmate. Clever loophole, there.
That's just a start. The government does have that power & they do it all the time, just not to those in the midst of a marked psychiatric crisis who has documented his desire to commit mass harm to innocent people. That doesn't get anybody elected.
Two massacres, two days, one with a gun, one with a van. On Sunday, April 22, Travis Reinking killed three people at the Waffle House, in the Nashville, Tennessee area. On Monday, April 23, Alek Minassian rented a van and plowed up a crowded Toronto sidewalk, killing nine or ten. In both cases, the alleged perpetrators were deeply troubled, if not psychotic.
Travis Reinking - Nashville Gunman
Mr. Reinking jumped the White House fence less than a year ago, attempting to arrange a rendezvous with President Trump. Criminal charges were dismissed after completing criminal service at a Baptist Church link He previously expressed the thought that Taylor Swift was stalking him. And we have not yet heard from people who knew him from his past.
The focus has been on how Mr. Reinking was able to get his guns back. While that is important, it matters less than why he was at liberty in the first place. Jumping the White House fence is not the work of a normal person.
Alek Minassian - Toronto Van-man
According to the National Post Toronto van attack suspect Alek Minassian article, one of Mr. Minassian's classmates, Alexander Alexandrovitch, a former student at Thornlea Secondary School, which Minassian attended, reported that his former classmate stood out for his odd behavior. He stated: “I had classes with him. He was mentally unstable back then. He was known to meow like a cat and try to bite people, this is one sad and confusing story.”
What They and Others Like Him Have in Common
Add these two to the list, which includes:
Dylan Roofe (Charleston church massacre);
Devin Kelley (Texas Church Massacre);
Esteban Santiago (killed six people at Fort Lauderdale International Airport);
Adam Lanza (Sandy Hook massacre);
Jared Lochner (tried to kill Representative Gifford, killed many others;
James Holmes (Colorado movie theater massacre;
The people involved in all of these killings were well-known to authority. It was obvious to all that knew them that none could function in society. Devin Kelley and Esteban Santiago were discharged from the military because of mental illness and violence.
De-institutionalization was a well-intentioned program. It was supposed to convert inhumane and, for the patient ineffective confinement into treatment in the community. This April 2, 1972 article, which I remembered reading, The Patients Can Walk Out At Any Time at Bronx State Mental Hospital(link) made the case for de-institutionalization. Unfortunately few were as motivated as Israel Zwerling, and most looked at the process as a way of saving money.
We need to make it far easier to incarcerate or forcibly institutionalize people. Certainly the Nashville and Toronto slayers would not have been walking around before deinstitutionalization. The mental health system is not doing a good job of keeping these people under control. While the status quo ante before mass de-institutionalization was inhumane to the patients, it did keep the country safe from the lunatics. Perhaps the balance needs to be tipped more in favor of the public than the lunatics.
We can work at improving the humanity, and where appropriate the therapeutic nature of these centers. But we were safer with these people locked up than out loose.
I agree completely about State Hospitals. Yes, there were abuses in many of them. However, not all.
Where as once it was almost too easy to commit someone - now it is next to impossible.
Sometime in the early 1970s, Geraldo Rivera, then a young reporter for WABC in NYC, did an eposee about a state hostital for the mentally retaded called Willow Brook. The place was horrific, naked and emmaciated patients tied up, and lying in their own filth.
I was a child at the time, and these images are seered into my memory.
These patients were among the most vulnerable, since they were profoundly delayed. Many couldn't speak. And a disturbing amount were dumped by their families, who never visited their relatives.
When it came to institutionalization of the mentally ill, in many states it was far too easy to have someone commited. Generally, proving that a person is a "danger to themselves or others".
Many people were commited for spurious reasons - husbands seeking divorce could commit their wives, parents could commit a daughter for percieved promiscuity.
I agree with you, though. It a case of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater"
Today, in most states, it's nearly impossible to commit ANYONE.
Even putting them in an accute care facility, on a 72 hour hold, has become difficult.
I think these laws should at least be revisited. Long term care facilites can be humane, and should be an option.
Unfortunatly, many state hospitals have closed and fallen into disrepair since de-institutuionallization.
However, we do need to have this option available to society, in cases when people have clearly exhibited the desire to harm others.
Two massacres, two days, one with a gun, one with a van. On Sunday, April 22, Travis Reinking killed three people at the Waffle House, in the Nashville, Tennessee area. On Monday, April 23, Alek Minassian rented a van and plowed up a crowded Toronto sidewalk, killing nine or ten. In both cases, the alleged perpetrators were deeply troubled, if not psychotic.
We can work at improving the humanity, and where appropriate the therapeutic nature of these centers. But we were safer with these people locked up than out loose.
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I didn't pick up that this was only or mostly about spree killers. These people are a problem but not in the grand scheme of things. Rather than rewrite the 4th and 5th Amendments so we can confine people we think might become spree killers, if our intention is to improve public safety, we should just eliminate parole. Parolees kill far more people than spree killers and keeping them in jail for the duration wouldn't require moving constitutional heaven and earth to do it.
And I'd prefer not to be one of the people worked on to improve humanity, thank you.
I didn't pick up that this was only or mostly about spree killers. These people are a problem but not in the grand scheme of things. Rather than rewrite the 4th and 5th Amendments so we can confine people we think might become spree killers, if our intention is to improve public safety, we should just eliminate parole. Parolees kill far more people than spree killers and keeping them in jail for the duration wouldn't require moving constitutional heaven and earth to do it.
And I'd prefer not to be one of the people worked on to improve humanity, thank you.
Well, we do......in the federal system.
There is no parole in the federal system.
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