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Old 09-29-2008, 03:54 PM
 
6,760 posts, read 10,182,313 times
Reputation: 2992

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Just looking for a positive angle on the downturn. While it hurts in a lot of areas, it also makes people a lot more aware of things like energy usage, basically anything that cost money and can be reduced by conservation becomes important.

It would seem to me that with things going the way they are, it would be the perfect time to make some bold steps forward towards developing alternative energy sources to reduce our dependence on foreign countries. While oil will likely not sink much below $2.50 a gallon, it is still much better than what we were dealing with at $4.

I really don't know what the best solutions would be, but I really think we need to get moving on alternative energy.

Any thoughts?
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Old 09-29-2008, 05:18 PM
 
Location: Orlando
105 posts, read 186,772 times
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IMHO the only thing that will force the American lifestyle to search for alternatives to oil is going to be increases in oil prices. When filling the tank is costing $100 + each week and if it costs a lot to heat your house w/an oil burner. it will force the hand of most Americans to finally get serious about alternative.

If you suck all the oil out of the earth it might collapse on itself.
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Old 09-29-2008, 07:07 PM
 
12,870 posts, read 12,770,385 times
Reputation: 4446
hink americans will be better off in the long run by having a stable currency and oil prices should drop accordingly. we definitely need to drill for oil and the democratic party is clearly behind the times on this issue. it is ridiculous that other countries can drill off our coast, but we cannot. energy independence would go a long way towards solving our problems. we need to explore solar power, wind power, and coal. we have natural gas resources. did you know that the netherlands derived billions of euros in income yearly from natural gas?
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Old 09-29-2008, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,957 posts, read 98,776,620 times
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I think the economic downturn will bring about a downturn in investment in all technologies, green and otherwise.
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Heartland Florida
9,324 posts, read 23,226,903 times
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If the real estate bubble is allowed to implode, there will be more incentive to invest in energy technologies. The capital has to go somewhere, and everyone needs food and energy to survive.
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Old 09-30-2008, 01:50 PM
 
878 posts, read 1,845,775 times
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I think Katiana has it right. Alternative energy is inherently risky, while there's a huge potential market, there's a very high risk involved, and lots of capital required, most of which will never pay off.

Given the constriction of capital for investing, lenders are going to be more wary about making these types of loans. I would expect alternative energy research to decrease following this economic situation.

Hopefully that doesn't result in the government forcing its way into the marketplace.
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Ohio
17,986 posts, read 13,233,625 times
Reputation: 13765
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXboomerang View Post
It would seem to me that with things going the way they are, it would be the perfect time to make some bold steps forward towards developing alternative energy sources to reduce our dependence on foreign countries.
You need to educate yourself more. Energy is not the issue. The issue is fuel.

Hawaii is the only state that uses oil to provide energy. You can spend $Trillions on windmills and other forms of "alternative energy," and it won't decrease your dependence on foreign oil.

You can spend $Trillions on "alternative fuels" and that will reduce some of your dependence on foreign oil, but only at great cost and detriment to you.

The only way to significantly reduce your dependence on foreign oil, is to alter your life style.

How about a fat-body tax?

We can tax all the fat-bodies out there. All of your pharmaceuticals contain petro-chemicals made exclusively from light crude oil. You cannot make them from California Heavy or Illinois Intermediate.

The next time your at the grocery store, check out the foods that contain artificial colorings and artificial flavorings. You're eating imported foreign light grade crude oil.

Saccharin is made from intermediate grade crude oil, but Aspartame is made from light grade crude oil, which has to be imported.

You can't live without light crude oil. There isn't a day that goes by that you aren't wearing light oil, eating light oil, slathering it on your body or touching or using it.

The majority of the light oil you import is for your life-style, not fuel for your vehicles. In another post I listed the the small number of refineries out of the 146 refineries that refine light oil into gasoline, but gasoline is only half a barrel of oil, the other half is a small quantity of diesel and aviation fuel, and then petro-chemicals for your life-style.

If one of those refineries is running 100,000 barrels per day, that's 50,000 barrels of gasoline, 20,000 barrels of diesel and aviation fuel, and 30,000 barrels of your life-style.

You'd still have to import that 30,000 barrels. You'd be cutting 6 Million barrels of imported light oil to 4.5 to 5 Million barrels.

I suppose the refineries could spend $Billions to re-tool the cracking stills to refine heavy or intermediate grade oils so there wouldn't be any job losses.

This whole business of independence from foreign oil is a crack-pipe dream.

Your whole life is foreign oil. If you're willing to step back into the 1960s before the US started to import light oil, and before petro-chemical labs started to examine the properties of light oil and the petro-chemicals that could be derived from it, then go right ahead. Talk to your grand-parents about the 1960s and all the things they have today that they didn't have then.

Sure 40-50 Million people whose jobs are dependent on light oil will be unemployed, but at least Americans will be independent.

Maybe if people pray hard enough God will change the laws of chemistry and physics and then we can make those petro-chemicals from intermediate grade and heavy grade crude oils. Until then, we must use imported foreign light grade crude oils if we want those petro-chemicals.
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Old 09-30-2008, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,014 posts, read 8,078,833 times
Reputation: 4728
^ You need to educate yourself more. Energy is not the issue. The issue is fuel.

Hawaii is the only state that uses oil to provide energy. You can spend $Trillions on windmills and other forms of "alternative energy," and it won't decrease your dependence on
foreign oil.


^

Hey guess what? We burned over 600,000 gallons of oil this year to make electricity (in Minnesota). Not as much as Hawaii but still alot.........That just our IC plants there are a whole bunch more in the US besides ours.........Maybe you should educate yourself more.........
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Old 09-30-2008, 03:48 PM
 
6,760 posts, read 10,182,313 times
Reputation: 2992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
You need to educate yourself more. Energy is not the issue. The issue is fuel.

Hawaii is the only state that uses oil to provide energy. You can spend $Trillions on windmills and other forms of "alternative energy," and it won't decrease your dependence on foreign oil.

You can spend $Trillions on "alternative fuels" and that will reduce some of your dependence on foreign oil, but only at great cost and detriment to you.

The only way to significantly reduce your dependence on foreign oil, is to alter your life style.

How about a fat-body tax?

We can tax all the fat-bodies out there. All of your pharmaceuticals contain petro-chemicals made exclusively from light crude oil. You cannot make them from California Heavy or Illinois Intermediate.

The next time your at the grocery store, check out the foods that contain artificial colorings and artificial flavorings. You're eating imported foreign light grade crude oil.

Saccharin is made from intermediate grade crude oil, but Aspartame is made from light grade crude oil, which has to be imported.

You can't live without light crude oil. There isn't a day that goes by that you aren't wearing light oil, eating light oil, slathering it on your body or touching or using it.

The majority of the light oil you import is for your life-style, not fuel for your vehicles. In another post I listed the the small number of refineries out of the 146 refineries that refine light oil into gasoline, but gasoline is only half a barrel of oil, the other half is a small quantity of diesel and aviation fuel, and then petro-chemicals for your life-style.

If one of those refineries is running 100,000 barrels per day, that's 50,000 barrels of gasoline, 20,000 barrels of diesel and aviation fuel, and 30,000 barrels of your life-style.

You'd still have to import that 30,000 barrels. You'd be cutting 6 Million barrels of imported light oil to 4.5 to 5 Million barrels.

I suppose the refineries could spend $Billions to re-tool the cracking stills to refine heavy or intermediate grade oils so there wouldn't be any job losses.

This whole business of independence from foreign oil is a crack-pipe dream.

Your whole life is foreign oil. If you're willing to step back into the 1960s before the US started to import light oil, and before petro-chemical labs started to examine the properties of light oil and the petro-chemicals that could be derived from it, then go right ahead. Talk to your grand-parents about the 1960s and all the things they have today that they didn't have then.

Sure 40-50 Million people whose jobs are dependent on light oil will be unemployed, but at least Americans will be independent.

Maybe if people pray hard enough God will change the laws of chemistry and physics and then we can make those petro-chemicals from intermediate grade and heavy grade crude oils. Until then, we must use imported foreign light grade crude oils if we want those petro-chemicals.
Thanks for your initial insult.

If you will go back and read though, you will see I said REDUCE. Not eliminate. I do not know how much we can reduce our imports, but any amount that we can would be great. And we can at least scale back. Crude from algae is also a potential source for light grade oil. I don't know how feasible it is. Nobody does yet. But what would anyone have said 30 years ago if someone said "this algae stuff is cool, I wonder if we can make fuel out of it?" It would be nice to see what happens and not be scared to try.

Imagine if we had decided that oil did not hold enough promise and would have stuck with steam power. We could still be living in the 1850's.
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:57 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 4,831,021 times
Reputation: 1300
or maybe we'd have already developed better systems of power if we had not fallen into the dependence upon oil.

there are alternative solutions everywhere; we just need to find and harness them.

i think that large-scale cataclysm is one of the best contributors to culture and technology advancement. look at the renaissance: spurred on by war and plague. look at the rise of america, the most powerful nation in history: initiated by a bloody revolution.

will this financial circus inspire the alternative fuel craze? i honestly doubt it. i think that we will see a bunch of social, political, and economic reforms that have been badly needed. but i don't think that the world is ready to climb out of its nice, little, oil-filled sandbox yet.

also, what's the need for the insults? this was one of the cool things that i was looking forward to about the great debates forum, the lack of ignorant name-calling and childishness. maybe they are going to have to start giving access to this forum by strict invitation only...

aaron out.
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