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As for the stuff that people end up going to college for....these youngsters are looking at careers that make the MOST money. Many of them don't think twice about running up student loans and living off of their parents so that they can make the most money per hour....even if it means being stuck in a job that they will end up hating later. I tell everyone who asks..."Go into something that you feel passionate about which has a decent living wage.....pinch your pennies, make lists of wants/needs and buy second-hand as much as possible. Do NOT run up credit cards. If you don't have the money to buy it, then save up until you DO!"
You are wrong. Many people go into professions for money because they realize that they have nobody to rely on and often have someone to support and are just trying to make better life for their families especially when they come from impoverished background and do manage to get to a good school. In other words, these people are simply down to earth and realize that if they don't do what they have to do nobody will be out there to hand it to them when the need strikes.
Yes, sometimes you do have to take on some debt especially if you are going into the money professions and have good chances of paying the debt off, what's wrong with that? Also, what's wrong if you don't want to live your entire life forever pinching pennies and buying second hand? Why are you suggesting everyone should do it and be happy about it?
If someone wants to make millions being a oncologist specialist, or a high profile trial lawyer, then they should have to pay for their own education.
And they do, because most of these specialized jobs require years and years of schooling and many more years of loans and then residence when they don't get paid much. In other money professions, you also don't start out making crazy money right after getting your bachelor's degree. You start out at entry level. It takes years and years of paying your dues, climbing that ladder, competition is stiff and vicious and only very very few really make it to big bucks anyway even when they go for the higher compensated fields of study. How many people who start out of college in the top consulting or finance or law firms or investment banks actually make it to partner level or equivalent of that? For vast majority of them, the career path pretty much tapers off at some middle management level, never making it to the big bucks. There are tons of them in their 40s and 50s who never ever make it and end up settling down for less and eventually taking cushier jobs with not much growth perspective to get out of the crazy race for big cash.
Yes, I heard of some Ivy League grads making high 6 figure incomes right after getting their bachelors degree. First, it's most likely due to connections their parents have, or because of their spectacular skills or performance in college (my bet is still on connections and old boy network). Most likely such grads end up getting such high salaries because they are also required to re-locate to places with the highest COL in the country - like NYC.
It all boils down to this....do you recklessly fall into the trap of that rampant consumerism and "allow" your quality of life to degrade under a mountain of debt?....or do you resist the temptation and go without. Just because credit cards are available, that does NOT mean that you have to give in to the temptation and get one. If you DO have a credit card, no one MAKES you buy things that you can do without! A credit card should only be used in a dire emergency.
We have a credit card, but we have rarely ever used it and we ARE under the $50,000 per year income bracket....AND have 6 people living under our roof. No one is happier than us, or more content. When we buy a piece of furniture, we buy it second hand and refinish it. We repurpose what we can, cook from scratch, do NOT stop at coffee stands, go out to eat at restaurants, etc. We never, ever go without what we need, but definitely have learned to NOT fall into the trap of "keeping up with the Joneses". The problem with the Joneses?... It's a LIE! The Joneses are poorer than the average Joe Blow!...because they've got 2nd (at least) mortgages on everything.....they don't actually OWN anything. If the Joneses lose their income, they lose everything, because they've bought everything on credit. No makee pmts, no havee anything. Good heavens it's all basic math here.
I have no respect for those living all-out on credit, behaving like irresponsible spoiled brats. It's all an illusion and can be snatched away just like THAT. The biggest share of people haven't a clue how to manage their money. They're too busy living for their wants in order to impress someone else. They're too afraid of "looking poor"....again, it's all an illusion. LOL
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Look, I'm not saying that we should all be spendthrifts and that the type of economizing you are suggesting doesn't make some sense.
I am saying this: While economizing may be good for a family stop and think about what effect it would have on the economy as a whole if every family did all the things you suggest. Buy used furniture and refurnish it? I guess the furniture factories might as well shut down and lay off all their employees. Don't go out and eat at restaurants? I guess all those chains might just as well go out of business and layoff all their cooks, waitresses and hostesses. You didn't say this but I guess the implication is we should all buy used cars too. If this happens, all the automakers might as well shut down 50% of their production and layoff 50% of their employees. Don't buy as much from retail stores like Walmart? I guess 1/2 of retail stores might as well close.
Economists have a term for what you are describing. That term is the "paradox of thrift". Thrift maybe good for an individual. Its not good for a country that depends on the exchange of goods and services.
You think a credit card should only be used in an emergencies. Ok, what is your alternative? Most places won't let you write a check anymore. You could carry around cash in your wallet, but that's sort of risk too. You may lose it or have it stolen. I guess there's the debit card. I'm kind of stubborn there. I think its a device that works well for banks. I'm not convinced it works well for consumers.
Now, let me tell you what I think is a better way to live:
1. Use debt, but use it carefully. Its unrealistic to think you can buy a home without a mortgage. So, I recommend everyone get their credit in shape and get a mortgage at the lowest possible interest rate when they buy a home.
2. Have a credit card and pay it off TWICE a month. In fact, I think the term "credit card" is a bad word. It should be a "convenience card". That way you'll never pay a dime of interest. If you're like me, you also get free roundtrip flights around the country too by using it.
3. Buy a new car, but don't overpay for it. Consult Consumer Reports and other sources. Look for a true deal. We purchased a new Ford Focus for $14,500 about a year ago. New cars come with warranties and the latest safety features. They get better gas economy than older cars do.
4. Sometimes buying new appliances is truly the best option. They get more in the way of energy savings than older appliances do and they will last longer than a used item will. We have the same Maytag washer we purchased new when we got married in 1985.
5. Debt is a not a dirty word. Without debt, we wouldn't have a family income well into the six figure range. The key is using debt appropriately. Use it to buy a house. Use it to build a business. Use it to buy a car. use it to go to school in a field that will generate a decent income. If you look at virtually every person in this country who is a success story (not someone who just inherited money) almost every one of those people had the discipline to use debt wisely.
Debt is not used wisely by some. For that matter, others abuse alcohol, tobacco, drugs, or the right to keep firearms. I daresay the majority are responsible.
Good for you that you have a six-figure income, perhaps you need to make that much money, or "feel" you need that kind of money. We, and many others like us, do not need that much money.
Actually.. I can't help but feel like you are somewhat bitter about the whole thing. You keep saying again and again how happy you are in your minimalistic ways and how broke and unhappy all those 'joneses' around you must be. In reality you don't really know whether the people you think cannot afford the stuff they buy actually are in debt. They very well maybe well-off enough to afford all that stuff in cash. Those who make 6-figure incomes very well may like their jobs for what they are and not only for what they pay. If you have to keep telling yourself and others how miserable everyone who seems to spend money on new stuff is and how unhappy everyone who makes higher income than you must be, maybe you are the miserable one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel
We are quite self-sufficient in many ways and do not feel compelled to pay others to do for us what we are perfectly capable of doing for ourselves.
Yes, you definitely don't need to be changing your ways of life if you are happy and you are definitely not obligated to go spend to 'support the economy'. But you also keep pushing your way of life on others suggesting that others should be happy with it and this is the right way to live, that's what rubs me the wrong way. If everyone starts doing what you do, it's true that many more people will be out of jobs. I see businesses closing all the time and when I go and buy something or go eat out I do feel like the money I spend will go towards paying someone's wages, supporting someone's family. In our day and age of competition with developing countries for jobs, massive outsourcing even in white color professions, small businesses are actually a glimmer of hope for many Americans trying to find their way to make a living.
Actually.. I can't help but feel like you are somewhat bitter about the whole thing. You keep saying again and again how happy you are in your minimalistic ways and how broke and unhappy all those 'joneses' around you must be. In reality you don't really know whether the people you think cannot afford the stuff they buy actually are in debt. They very well maybe well-off enough to afford all that stuff in cash. Those who make 6-figure incomes very well may like their jobs for what they are and not only for what they pay. If you have to keep telling yourself and others how miserable everyone who seems to spend money on new stuff is and how unhappy everyone who makes higher income than you must be, maybe you are the miserable one?
Yes, you definitely don't need to be changing your ways of life if you are happy and you are definitely not obligated to go spend to 'support the economy'. But you also keep pushing your way of life on others suggesting that others should be happy with it and this is the right way to live, that's what rubs me the wrong way. If everyone starts doing what you do, it's true that many more people will be out of jobs. I see businesses closing all the time and when I go and buy something or go eat out I do feel like the money I spend will go towards paying someone's wages, supporting someone's family. In our day and age of competition with developing countries for jobs, massive outsourcing even in white color professions, small businesses are actually a glimmer of hope for many Americans trying to find their way to make a living.
I'm not "pushing" my way of life on anyone and LOL...I'm certainly not bitter, not even a tad, about pinching pennies. I'm just sick of spoiled brats whining about how you CAN'T make it...when they can't be bothered with making a list of wants and needs!! Read the OP! There are folks out there who are claiming you can't make it. Many are patting themselves on the back, much as you just did " and when I go and buy something or go eat out I do feel like the money I spend will go towards paying someone's wages, supporting someone's family. " When you and others decide you're going to go out to eat, rather than picking up food at the grocery store, you are NOT thinking, "You know, someone else needs to feed their family too. Those poor folks who are working in that restaurant might lose their jobs if I cook a meal instead of eating out."
Oh knock it off! People go out to eat because they don't want to cook! Unless it's your friend's restaurant and you know they're in trouble financially, AND you're doing well for yourself, you don't give a CRAP about whether or not those restaurant owners/workers are paying their bills or not. Give me a break! Nor do people who go out and finance a new car think, first and foremost.."You know, I'm going to help those automobile manufacturers stay in business!! I'm gonna buy a new car this month!" Give me a frickin break!
As for people selecting what they want to go to school for....SOME go into a profession because it's what they want to do. The biggest share of young people don't have a CLUE what it is that they want to do for a living....they just want to make money! Again, if you and those who think like you, believe that I and those who think like me (believe in living responsibly and frugally) are pushing our values down your throats, stop complaining about how tough it is to make it in today's economy. We're trying to tell folks HOW to make it in this economy. People like you are giving the kind of advice that got the people of this country into the financial bind that it's in today!!
People can attempt to justify being lazy, wasteful, and egotistical anyway they want to. Some of us are NOT swallowing it! We're far too intelligent to bury our a$$es in debt and our heads in the sand. We might be pinching pennies, but we'll still get to keep everything we "own", even if we lose our jobs, WITHOUT filing for bankruptcy and screwing everyone we owe out of their money!
The check to check thing is also applicable to those who live beyond their means yet make thousands more than meager wages.
But it IS possible to survive on very little. Thriving is in the eye of the beholder.
For the most part I agree, but there are some things that stretch across the board. Nutrition is one of them. I'm saying this now, in this thread, because I went food shopping last night. The dh usually does that so I don't normally pay attention. I spent $233 and I was shocked at what it bought us. Food prices are unbelievable. Neither of us eat mammals, so it's not as if we're buying expensive steaks or anything. I try to go organic and it's just expensive. And it matters in order to thrive.
For the most part I agree, but there are some things that stretch across the board. Nutrition is one of them. I'm saying this now, in this thread, because I went food shopping last night. The dh usually does that so I don't normally pay attention. I spent $233 and I was shocked at what it bought us. Food prices are unbelievable. Neither of us eat mammals, so it's not as if we're buying expensive steaks or anything. I try to go organic and it's just expensive. And it matters in order to thrive.
I agree here Braunwyn. Right there is where we are noticing the huge difference in our household bills....FOOD.....GOOD food. I can't stress enough how upset it makes me to think that you can walk in to a supermarket and buy soft drinks for 1/2 the price of real juice. It's appalling the bill you can ring up by simply making a stop in the fresh produce aisles.
We are meat eaters in our household, but I gotta tell you, we spend more money on fresh produce in the winter than we do meat, hands down! Summer and fall aren't bad, because we grow quite a few of our own veggies, but the deer got into the garden so bad this year that we didn't have enough for them for us to eat fresh, and the freezer and jars for winter. We are surely feeling the bite this winter. Another thing that kills me is the price of whole wheat flour vs white flour in the last few years. If you don't hit the sales, you can't hardly afford it!
When you and others decide you're going to go out to eat, rather than picking up food at the grocery store, you are NOT thinking, "You know, someone else needs to feed their family too. Those poor folks who are working in that restaurant might lose their jobs if I cook a meal instead of eating out."
I don't go out to eat just because I feel like I am supporting someone. What a ridiculous idea. I obviously do this for the selfish reasons just like anyone else (e.g. don't want to cook, too tired, no time, want something more exotic, want to go out... etc). I don't go out to spend excessively something I cannot afford just because I want to be patriotic and support the families of the poor restaurant owners. Come on. Same with shopping. I am not going to buy an overpriced good from a local store when I can get it much cheaper online. Sometimes, I would buy from a local store when I know the owner, when I get excellent customer service and when the difference in price is small enough to not worry about being ripped off. And I am certainly not patting myself on the back for paying for some services I use because they do provide livelihood for someone. I am simply stating the fact. When you WANT to go out or buy something new and you CAN afford it and you end up doing it, you DO support someone. This of course, doesn't justify incessant spending beyond your means.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel
As for people selecting what they want to go to school for....SOME go into a profession because it's what they want to do. The biggest share of young people don't have a CLUE what it is that they want to do for a living....they just want to make money!
Not true. A lot of people go into majors that don't really provide job opportunities upon completion of their degrees. A lot of young people don't think about money when they graduate and what jobs they would get with their degrees. for those who want to make money and do go into money degrees.. Are you saying there is something wrong with it? Seems like it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel
Again, if you and those who think like you, believe that I and those who think like me (believe in living responsibly and frugally)
Well, again wrong. I and other who think like me also live responsibly and frugally (in no less way then you are). We also live way below our means and have no debt. We just happen to make more money or accumulate more significant networth, so while still living below our means we can afford certain niceties and don't have to pinch pennies. 'We' also didn't get anything handed to us, but accomplished everything ourselves starting from scratch at the very very bottom of the society. 'we' enjoy having money, the problems it solves and the freedom it provides. 'We' don't always hate our jobs. If 'we' do have jobs we don't like, 'we' fortunately don't have to do them for too long as 'we' can afford to retire much earlier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel
stop complaining about how tough it is to make it in today's economy. We're trying to tell folks HOW to make it in this economy. People like you are giving the kind of advice that got the people of this country into the financial bind that it's in today!!
a) did you see me complain? I am making it fine in today's economy. I also made fine out of the hellhole of a situation I was in when I immigrated into this country, having to support my family working minimum wage crappy jobs while going to school full time at the tender age of 18, not having any life, not being able to afford McDonalds. I was poor. Very poor, so was my family - always. Poverty sucks, counting every penny (and I mean literally) sucks. Worrying about your family being kicked out for not paying rent sucks, not having savings because you make minimum wage job and have to pay rent for everyone sucks. Been there done that. No glory in that for me.
c) please explain what advice am I giving that is ruining this country? You just said that you are trying to tell folks HOW to make it. Well, I don't. I think they'll do just fine making their own decisions and learning from their own mistakes. People always complained and will complain, no matter what decade or generation. I am sure young people in the 60s or 80s complained too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel
People can attempt to justify being lazy, wasteful, and egotistical anyway they want to. Some of us are NOT swallowing it! We're far too intelligent to bury our a$$es in debt and our heads in the sand. We might be pinching pennies, but we'll still get to keep everything we "own", even if we lose our jobs, WITHOUT filing for bankruptcy and screwing everyone we owe out of their money!
I am not justifying wastefulness and laziness, plenty of that exists and hopefully people eventually learn from their mistakes. I admit that there is a problem with people overextending themselves and that some people do have a sense of self-entitlement at a young age.
But, like I said, you are forgetting there also plenty of those who keep everything they own without pinching pennies, they just happen to own more. And they just happen to do this over the years living frugally and happened to consider money to be important enough to go into professions that pay or building businesses that are successful. They can afford to lose their jobs and will do just fine. They also don't bury their heads in the sand. Not everyone who doesn't pinch pennies is living in debt and are in a financial ruin. Not everyone who places importance in making money (going into money professions or businesses) or building networth is unhappy. Just like not everyone who does pinch pennies are living the great life they enjoy. Different strokes for different folks. Live and let live.
If you are young and money is important to you and you WANT certain lifestyle, well, go into the profession that would allow it, start a business or look for opportunities, try to build connections, be proactive. Nobody is responsible for giving you the lifestyle you want. If you are happy with minimum and you want to do want your heart desires and money is not important, great! Don't complain when you have to pinch pennies to make the ends meet and when you can't afford certain things you want. You can't 'want' something that you didn't work towards or decided was not important and complain about it. Nobody's fault.
You found your 'way' and you are happy, but I and many others may not be necessarily happy in your situation and wouldn't consider yours a good advice for myself personally.
I agree here Braunwyn. Right there is where we are noticing the huge difference in our household bills....FOOD.....GOOD food. I can't stress enough how upset it makes me to think that you can walk in to a supermarket and buy soft drinks for 1/2 the price of real juice. It's appalling the bill you can ring up by simply making a stop in the fresh produce aisles.
We are meat eaters in our household, but I gotta tell you, we spend more money on fresh produce in the winter than we do meat, hands down! Summer and fall aren't bad, because we grow quite a few of our own veggies, but the deer got into the garden so bad this year that we didn't have enough for them for us to eat fresh, and the freezer and jars for winter. We are surely feeling the bite this winter. Another thing that kills me is the price of whole wheat flour vs white flour in the last few years. If you don't hit the sales, you can't hardly afford it!
Yea, it's crazy. That's one of the reasons I always wanted land. We just bought our first home and the 1/2 acre will provide some room for a garden. Something has to give especially with children. We're only two and we spend that much in a week - week 1/2. OTOH, I do buy things that I probably don't have to like rice milk or almond milk. I rarely get cereal (that's a little pleasure I give myself once in a while), but damn! It was $4 for box lol. And I bought the dh his cashews...$6 for a little thing of nuts.
I don't go out to eat just because I feel like I am supporting someone. What a ridiculous idea. I obviously do this for the selfish reasons just like anyone else (e.g. don't want to cook, too tired, no time, want something more exotic, want to go out... etc). I don't go out to spend excessively something I cannot afford just because I want to be patriotic and support the families of the poor restaurant owners. Come on. Same with shopping. I am not going to buy an overpriced good from a local store when I can get it much cheaper online. Sometimes, I would buy from a local store when I know the owner, when I get excellent customer service and when the difference in price is small enough to not worry about being ripped off. And I am certainly not patting myself on the back for paying for some services I use because they do provide livelihood for someone. I am simply stating the fact. When you WANT to go out or buy something new and you CAN afford it and you end up doing it, you DO support someone. This of course, doesn't justify incessant spending beyond your means.
Not true. A lot of people go into majors that don't really provide job opportunities upon completion of their degrees. A lot of young people don't think about money when they graduate and what jobs they would get with their degrees. for those who want to make money and do go into money degrees.. Are you saying there is something wrong with it? Seems like it.
Well, again wrong. I and other who think like me also live responsibly and frugally (in no less way then you are). We also live way below our means and have no debt. We just happen to make more money or accumulate more significant networth, so while still living below our means we can afford certain niceties and don't have to pinch pennies. 'We' also didn't get anything handed to us, but accomplished everything ourselves starting from scratch at the very very bottom of the society. 'we' enjoy having money, the problems it solves and the freedom it provides. 'We' don't always hate our jobs. If 'we' do have jobs we don't like, 'we' fortunately don't have to do them for too long as 'we' can afford to retire much earlier.
a) did you see me complain? I am making it fine in today's economy. I also made fine out of the hellhole of a situation I was in when I immigrated into this country, having to support my family working minimum wage crappy jobs while going to school full time at the tender age of 18, not having any life, not being able to afford McDonalds. I was poor. Very poor, so was my family - always. Poverty sucks, counting every penny (and I mean literally) sucks. Worrying about your family being kicked out for not paying rent sucks, not having savings because you make minimum wage job and have to pay rent for everyone sucks. Been there done that. No glory in that for me.
c) please explain what advice am I giving that is ruining this country? You just said that you are trying to tell folks HOW to make it. Well, I don't. I think they'll do just fine making their own decisions and learning from their own mistakes. People always complained and will complain, no matter what decade or generation. I am sure young people in the 60s or 80s complained too.
I am not justifying wastefulness and laziness, plenty of that exists and hopefully people eventually learn from their mistakes. I admit that there is a problem with people overextending themselves and that some people do have a sense of self-entitlement at a young age.
But, like I said, you are forgetting there also plenty of those who keep everything they own without pinching pennies, they just happen to own more. And they just happen to do this over the years living frugally and happened to consider money to be important enough to go into professions that pay or building businesses that are successful. They can afford to lose their jobs and will do just fine. They also don't bury their heads in the sand. Not everyone who doesn't pinch pennies is living in debt and are in a financial ruin. Not everyone who places importance in making money (going into money professions or businesses) or building networth is unhappy. Just like not everyone who does pinch pennies are living the great life they enjoy. Different strokes for different folks. Live and let live.
If you are young and money is important to you and you WANT certain lifestyle, well, go into the profession that would allow it, start a business or look for opportunities, try to build connections, be proactive. Nobody is responsible for giving you the lifestyle you want. If you are happy with minimum and you want to do want your heart desires and money is not important, great! Don't complain when you have to pinch pennies to make the ends meet and when you can't afford certain things you want. You can't 'want' something that you didn't work towards or decided was not important and complain about it. Nobody's fault.
You found your 'way' and you are happy, but I and many others may not be necessarily happy in your situation and wouldn't consider yours a good advice for myself personally.
LOL..... fair enough. At least there are a few things in this post that you and I DO agree on. I'm sure that there are many people who don't quite have the patience to "wait" for certain things in life. As I've said, we've paid off our home and property and own, free and clear, everything we have. No, we can't afford a vacation home or to even take exotic family vacations, however, we are the type of people who prefer to load the camping gear and 4-wheelers into the back of the 4-WDs and head for a secluded spot on a river for a few days. As you said, to each his own.
I still say though....good things come to those who wait, work hard, and are not wasteful!
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