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Heat strip like a glow plug or tank heater does for a diesel tank? I was just asking if you have ever tried it? I take it the answer is, "no?"
In my area where you might expect 0 on the coldest days you might use a treatment for the fuel itself, you could even mix in some kerosene. I personally never did anything with the fuel because I never had any trouble. I had a Mercedes and that thing would start up even when it got down to 15 or 20 without heat or ether. The heater that you plug in heats the anti freeze, cab is even nice and warm in the morning at least compared to outside with deiced windows. On my trucks I had extension cords with timers, I'd set them to come on at 5 for 7AM start.
IMHO the primary reason for the Gasohol program is to subsidize the Midwestern RED (Republican) states agribusiness at the considerable cost to the rest of us. Reducing imported oil is not even a consideration. Besides these fuels create many problems if they are stored for any length of time. I have to use an additive to keep the fuels in my motorcycles from gumming up the works. That is E10 or E15 or whatever is sold a common motor fuel.
I believe a hybrid car fueled by vegetable biodiesel or straight oil is about as “green” as possible. Too bad we cannot grow hemp (thank you cotton industry) because hemp oil is a very good fuel and the rest of the plant most useful as well.
"Energy Economics" fact check on this?
The corn has to be processed with various enzymes -- very little energy there.
yeast is added to the mixture to ferment it and make alcohol -- again, very little energy there.
the alcohol is then distilled to fuel-grade ethanol that is 85- to 95-percent pure. -- Finally SOME energy used there -- but that can all be Solar Thermal, and surplus Wind.
To produce ethanol that can be used as fuel, it also has to be denatured with a small amount of gasoline. Not much energy there, either.
Overall, to claim this is an energy consumptive process seems rather silly.
Your assumptions astonish me.
Solar this wind that, while back on earth it takes power, generated at a power plant that is burning coal or oil.
It takes power to keep the plant warm for the fermenting process when it's -20*f. the whole process takes power that is generated.
(it needs to be cooled to as it can't get to hot also)
It takes power to run a plant year around.
Those big wind mills will take longer to be on the money making side than a coal fired plant. Talk about boondoggles.
solar, what happens when the sun sets and the temps fall?
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Originally Posted by Philip T
So I get it, you have no practical (as in practiced) knowledge of the topic. I get it, and that is fine.
Other than living in a northern tier state has given me.
As far as block heaters, even my truck has one. And so do the back-up generators we install. Not exactly rocket science or energy hawgs, per se.
I have covered this.
As far as my asking, I am heading more towards run-time. About like on propane/NG tractors during cold weather. Doing a hot water jacket or loop up a fuel line is not that big of deal.
When did propane come into this?
It is hardly the only option to deal with cold weather.
Diesels have been started all my lifetime with a shot of ether. Starting an Ethanol engine on Butanol (a 4 carbon alcohol) is an easy fix, as well.
Time to get back to earth, yea on some old diesels you could getaway with this. IF you try it on a engine that has a grid heater your going to have a big surprise as it can be on and heating at any point it is cold enough. Why do you need starting fluid? You said just plug it in? or is it just worn out? I've started many old diesels in the winter with out the stuff?
Good batteries Is the trick.
But again if it is cold the fuel in the tank can pose problems. If the water has settled out warming it up doesn't make it go away.
hmmm, ok, I think you are saying that presumption and appearance is the basis of knowledge? Not trying to be hard on you, but that is actually the basis of magic tricks. Beyond that you never actually do math on Anything?
I can say the same the math is right in front of you.
how about some facts? Becuse all I'm hearing from you is
"it could"
How does THAT work on the farm? We tend to study, research, and actually test matters on our end of things.
Then show your work.
Not much farming is done in the winter.
so where is your cold weather experience coming from?
Mine comes from a life time working with diesels and gas engines at sub freezing temps.
But if you prefer illustrations -- If a farmer is growing it -- whatever it/sugar source crop . . . in a rural area where it is more likely to be consumed . . . and made into fuel locally, and used as fuel locally . . . why would that consume more energy? It would appear that it would need less, as well as keeping more money local.
It's not made locally. Now you want a plant built in every community? This alcohol has to be sent to a fuel depot where it can be blended into the gas so is the bio used in diesel fuel.
The argument you are making is more against Gasoline and Diesel being piped/pumped into rural markets, where that then goes on trucks to deliver it to local retail. That is processed and transported from remote locations and then has to be re-handled several times.
Maybe you do not comprehend some of the core concepts of Green -- this forum area? Local production and use is one of them. It is sort of a countermeasure against the (now failing) Globalony Market Theory.
Locally produced Ethanol and other Bio-Fuels fit that part of Green Model rather well.
Yet another assumption.
Of course the greenes are grasping at it as it's not fossil fuel.
But sticking your head in the sand and not acknowledging it's limitations, drawbacks and costs is just silly.
Your assumptions astonish me.
Solar this wind that, while back on earth it takes power, generated at a power plant that is burning coal or oil.
So letta me see if'n I ama gitting this-a-here rite?
You need Electricity?
From a power plant?
Burning Coal or Oil?
To make Ethanol?
oookkkkaaaayyyy.
Have you never heard of Moonshiners? No 'tricity in them backwoods.
And besides, practically No Power in the Mainland US is generated from Oil. This is really getting goofy, yunno?
But at any rate, no, just plain Solar Thermal (really cheap and easy) will do.
For real, snofarmer -- I actually really do work in the real world on this type stuff.
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It takes power to keep the plant warm for the fermenting process when it's -20*f. the whole process takes power that is generated.
(it needs to be cooled to as it can't get to hot also)
It takes power to run a plant year around.
Really you have to learn to work WITH nature.
Not fight it.
That is more of that "Green" stuff.
[mumbles under breath -- and I am telling a farmer this?]
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Those big wind mills will take longer to be on the money making side than a coal fired plant. Talk about boondoggles.
I have NO idea what windmills have to do with this?
But let me play along.
You, me and Don Quixote all line up and shake our fists -- and shout -- Dad-Burned Windymills!!!
But for real, in the real world I am putting together an order for somewhere between 100 and 200 real world windmills for the year ahead.
Could be next year, this time, I could be a geniune Wind Millionaire.
Get it? Wind. Wind Mill. Wind Millionaire? Could even be Wind Million Air? Huh? huh? Ok. Seemed funny to me.
But really . . . Windmills are not needed to make Ethanol any more than Oil is.
We past that?
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solar, what happens when the sun sets and the temps fall?
Ok, you really do not know this. My bad on lack of providing information. Sorry to be such a smart ass. Most Solar Thermal coasts through the night. We have done Green Houses that only take one Sort of Sunny Day to coast through three cloudy cold days (and dark winter nights).
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Yet another assumption.
Of course the greenes are grasping at it as it's not fossil fuel.
Ummm, no. It is because it is Better, Faster, and Cheaper than the existing, quickly past-dating present methods.
Has farming really changed this much since I was raising Corn, Wheat, and Soybeans? Maybe I was young and dumb, but most the guys I used to farm with seemed pretty smart and clever. Some were brewing their own fuel back then some 30 years ago.
Catch me up on this -- What has happened?
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But sticking your head in the sand and not acknowledging it's limitations, drawbacks and costs is just silly.
Well, no, that is exactly what this is about. Some folks with real-world experience, some with real world knowledge and trading ideas and information about various topics. Hopefully finding and curing problems before we experience them.
But it sounds like you do not bring either of these -- experience nor knowledge. But that is fine, I welcome any holes you may find, anyway.
If you could come up with any real challenges that would be great. One of the problems with focusing and getting deep into a topic is that it may leave blindspots around the sides.
But I guess your role is more of a naysayer role? Like "Man will never fly!" or "If a train goes over 60 mph, all the air will be sucked out and everyone will die!"
Like I say, you are welcome to the role, but what is up with that?
Your list did not come through the "quote" system, so let me go down it here?
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Other than living in a northern tier state has given me.
Living in the Frozen North? As do Eskimos.
Does not mean they have dealt with much practical fuel use of Ethanol.
Used to live in the Frozen North, myself, btw.
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When did propane come into this?
You ever use Propane equipment in the Winter?
We had an old Oliver that ran on Propane.
Looked like a pregnant tractor.
At any rate, when Propane gets cold it does not flow well as a gas. So various heat jackets and heated carburetors were used. Just thought that may stir some thinking with you. Maybe not.
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Time to get back to earth, yea on some old diesels you could getaway with this. IF you try it on a engine that has a grid heater your going to have a big surprise as it can be on and heating at any point it is cold enough. Why do you need starting fluid? You said just plug it in? or is it just worn out? I've started many old diesels in the winter with out the stuff?
Good batteries Is the trick.
Just pointing out there are MANY good already known solutions to cold weather staring and operating of ICE (internal combustion engines) equipment. Really not that big of deal.
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But again if it is cold the fuel in the tank can pose problems. If the water has settled out warming it up doesn't make it go away.
We used to use dri-gas for that.
Quote:
I can say the same the math is right in front of you.
how about some facts? Becuse all I'm hearing from you is
"it could"
Oh, I love numbers.
Math on what in particular?
Quote:
Not much farming is done in the winter.
Good thing, huh?
That is what a trip to Florida is all about.
Quote:
so where is your cold weather experience coming from?
Mine comes from a life time working with diesels and gas engines at sub freezing temps.
Does not necessarily take a lifetime, yunno.
Sometimes 4 years experience can cover 4 years experience done 5 times.
But for real, Michigan and Army Play-Time.
Quote:
It's not made locally. Now you want a plant built in every community? This alcohol has to be sent to a fuel depot where it can be blended into the gas so is the bio used in diesel fuel.
No, not really. On the farm scale, the folks I am helping and set up and do it right on their own site. Why suffer the shipping costs, lost money to some corporation handling it, only to ship it back and then pay retail?
Where is the sense -- or dollars and cents -- in that?
... No, not really. On the farm scale, the folks I am helping and set up and do it right on their own site. Why suffer the shipping costs, lost money to some corporation handling it, only to ship it back and then pay retail?
Where is the sense -- or dollars and cents -- in that?
At one point when Henry Ford was trying to get investors he did advocate for each community in our nation to grow their own automobile fuels.
But this way [corporate shipping / refining / shipping] is likely better, we pay much higher prices now.
It takes more fossil fuel energy to produce the ethanol from corn than you get out of it therefore it is not "green". Using the fossil fuel energy directly would be more environmentally friendly.
Note they use fossil fuels to process it.
Not to mention, the fuel is inefficient. You actually get less mileage using it and it is really hard on engines (even those rated for it). The only thing green about it is the money those pushing it will be making off it.
IMHO the primary reason for the Gasohol program is to subsidize the Midwestern RED (Republican) states agribusiness at the considerable cost to the rest of us. Reducing imported oil is not even a consideration. Besides these fuels create many problems if they are stored for any length of time. I have to use an additive to keep the fuels in my motorcycles from gumming up the works. That is E10 or E15 or whatever is sold a common motor fuel.
I believe a hybrid car fueled by vegetable biodiesel or straight oil is about as “green” as possible. Too bad we cannot grow hemp (thank you cotton industry) because hemp oil is a very good fuel and the rest of the plant most useful as well.
Wow, you just cannot keep politics out of anything, can you? What political party do you suppose is pushing for all those wind generators, that are going up all over the Midwest at a cost of $1.5 million each, and will NEVER pay for themselves?
Here is a simple tidbit about corn ethanol that you have undoubtedly NEVER considered... The higher price of corn, due to the higher demand because of ethanol, has eliminated "target pricing deficiency payments" to corn farmers, by the USDA. In other words, the money that is subsidizing the ethanol industry USED TO BE GOING TO FARMERS. That's another way of saying that, financially, it's a wash. Of course, Eastern snobs would never actually be able to imagine that.
The main problem facing the ethanol industry, is that they need to find better sources for their raw material. Switch Grass would be one, and there are several other promising possibilities.
Regarding ethanol "supposedly" wreaking havoc on all these engines? The fact is, it DOESN'T. That's 99% BS and hype. Ignorant people blame everything that goes wrong with their engines on ethanol, and it's just stupid. If they can run Formula One cars on pure corn alcohol, your crappy little motorcycle can run on it.
Regarding ethanol "supposedly" wreaking havoc on all these engines? The fact is, it DOESN'T. That's 99% BS and hype. Ignorant people blame everything that goes wrong with their engines on ethanol, and it's just stupid. If they can run Formula One cars on pure corn alcohol, your crappy little motorcycle can run on it.
You are honestly trying to compare engines for racing which they constantly rebuild and refit through extensive maintenance with the common engine out there?
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Last edited by MissingAll4Seasons; 06-22-2012 at 04:14 PM..
You are honestly trying to compare engines for racing which they constantly rebuild and refit through extensive maintenance with the common engine out there?
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What RPM range do Formula One engine run? Moderator cut: inflammatory It's at least 5x the RPMs of regular car & truck engines. Now... Care to tell me how/why their wear has ANYTHING to do with ethanol?
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Last edited by MissingAll4Seasons; 06-22-2012 at 04:17 PM..
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No 'tricity in them backwoods.
