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The interesting thing in the original article cited is that the wind farm in Oregon is not going to provide power for Oregon, the power is going to be sold to Southern California Edison (SCE). Oregon is home to some of the largest hydroelectric power plants on the planet which provide for nearly all of it's in-state power needs, 365 days a year with no "back up system" needed. Very few fossil fuel power plants are used in Oregon, so the state is already better than almost any place on earth for generating power without CO2.
This new project in Oregon is probably an example of what we will see more of. The power generated by the wind farm will be transported about a thousand miles south to light up my neighborhood. I guess the power generated by wind farms in West TX and up and down the Great Plains is also transported hundreds or maybe 1000+ miles to metro areas in the central USA. Here is California, electric utility companies like SCE must meet state mandates to have a certain percentage of electricity sold to be generated by renewable (non fossil fuel) sources on a scale that increases every few years. So that appears to be the main reason why companies are putting out big money for the wind farm. Well, I suppose it's better than the government throwing money into stuff like Cash for Clunkers to try and stimulate the economy.
Very few fossil fuel power plants are used in Oregon, so the state is already better than almost any place on earth for generating power without CO2.
Last word I heard on it hydro and nuclear will not be included in mandates so Oregon would be in same boat as somewhere producing almost entirely with coal and have to come up wind/solar generation. They could of course switch to biomass and burn wood too.
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So that appears to be the main reason why companies are putting out big money for the wind farm.
They aren't, the government is or I should say you are. Then they get to sell the power to you that you paid to install in the first place. Like how that works? None of these wind farms or solar farms would exist without heavy subsidization and that includes all levels of government handing out fat checks.
They aren't, the government is or I should say you are. Then they get to sell the power to you that you paid to install in the first place. Like how that works? None of these wind farms or solar farms would exist without heavy subsidization and that includes all levels of government handing out fat checks.
Yeah, that's really unfair. Let's tax or regulate carbon dioxide emissions so as to reflect the true cost to our collective atmosphere of using hydrocarbon fuels. Then let industry decide the best way (Wind, solar, nuclear, CCS, etc.) to minimize their costs given this economic incentive.
That doesn't support your argument that these companies have invented a false crisis. So next you roll out the "I know more than you." Please try to make logical statements, instead.
The GE-nx engine sacrifices thermodynamic efficiency in a fuel-lean combustor to avoid NOx production not because they lobbied congress to enact enhanced pollution controls on aircraft, but rather because they anticipated that such action would take place and acted accordingly to meet future customer demands.
40MW of installed capacity in five years does not a put one in the know. The nameplate power of a moderately-sized wind farm is 10 greater than that. Thats like a handful of MCFC fuel cells or 1/20th of a real powerplant.
Make sound arguments to support your premise if you can, don't try trotting out some sort of personal credentials. You're not going to post personal information (if you have a grain of sense) like your company's phone number or email, so your "invitations" fail to make up for a lack of logical argument.
So take a deep breath, maybe go do something else for a little while, and then come back and see if you can come up with a real argument. If you have examples from your personal experience which really do support your premise, I'd be happy to hear and discuss them.
I do not believe I stated that GE or Cat developed any crisis. Only that they were taking advantage of the percieved crisis (like any good company) Also I don't think I presented any "argument" unless it's the fact that windpower requires back up generation usally in the form of diesel or natural gas fired resource.
As to why would giveing the name and number of a public owned municipal utility be wrong. Here's a little hint though,we have the 5th largest amount of wind power either owned or under contract of all municipally-owned utilities in the nation according to the American Wind Energy Association’s Annual Wind Industry Report for the year ending 2008. We co-own and operate @1000Mw of baseload coal fired generation. I personally manage O&M for over 160 MWs of CI-ICE engines and am project manager for the installation of the next Agency owned 25 MW asset as well as developer and manager of our LFG generation facility.
I do not believe I stated that GE or Cat developed any crisis. Only that they were taking advantage of the percieved crisis (like any good company) Also I don't think I presented any "argument" unless it's the fact that windpower requires back up generation usally in the form of diesel or natural gas fired resource.
Ummmmmmm.... no and the net effect is negligible. Germany and Spain are often held up as examples of because of their heavy investment in renewables. Germany has one of the higher elecric rates in the EU and Spain has held them in check by allowing the power companies to amass a huge debt.
Last word I heard on it hydro and nuclear will not be included in mandates so Oregon would be in same boat as somewhere producing almost entirely with coal and have to come up wind/solar generation. They could of course switch to biomass and burn wood too.
They aren't, the government is or I should say you are. Then they get to sell the power to you that you paid to install in the first place. Like how that works? None of these wind farms or solar farms would exist without heavy subsidization and that includes all levels of government handing out fat checks.
The government isn't putting up any cash at all to build these wind farms. All of the capital is private. The wind farms are eligible for a production tax credit of about 2¢/kWh. That reduces future income taxes from the site. In addition, as is true of many large projects, the states often negotiate property tax reduction.
All forms of energy in this country have subsidies -- from having thousands of US troops in the Middle East protecting Exxon to coal's traditional free pass on pollution. Wind is subsidized less than most forms of energy.
The government isn't putting up any cash at all to build these wind farms. All of the capital is private. The wind farms are eligible for a production tax credit of about 2¢/kWh. That reduces future income taxes from the site. In addition, as is true of many large projects, the states often negotiate property tax reduction.
All forms of energy in this country have subsidies -- from having thousands of US troops in the Middle East protecting Exxon to coal's traditional free pass on pollution. Wind is subsidized less than most forms of energy.
"All of the capital is private." Really?
How do you figure that the huge tax rebates, in the form of cash back, is not the government putting money in to help build the wind farms?
Production Tax Credit (http://www.awea.org/policy/ptc.html - broken link)
"Additionally, wind project developers can choose to receive a 30% investment tax credit (ITC) in place of the PTC for facilities placed in service in 2009 and 2010, and also for facilities placed in service before 2013 if construction begins before the end of 2010. The ITC then qualifies to be converted to a grant from the Department of Treasury. The Treasury Department must pay the grant within 60 days of an application being submitted. This policy is designed to help the wind energy industry continue to finance projects during these challenging economic times. "
If that is not evidence that the government (i.e. the taxpayer) is underwriting the construction of these wind farms then there is a serious case of denial that needs addressing.
Let's face it: if Jeffery Immelt and GE were any closer in bed with Obama and his administration Michelle would have grounds for divorce based on adultery.
Last edited by lifelongMOgal; 01-01-2010 at 11:55 AM..
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