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My dad and our neighbor, with whom my dad hunted for years, both used refurbished Lee-Enfields in that very effective .303 Brit, esp. when it was loaded with either a 180 gr soft point or the devastating, at ranges out to about 250 yds at least, 200 gr round nose.
Nowadays, you can even get them in such things as the Aussie 7mm-303, or an historical Canadian gunsmith's wildcat of a 6.5mm-303. (I can't remember his name right now) Or even a standard .303 but with a 150 gr spitzer leaving the muzzle @ ≈ 2700 fps! good enough for you?
Yeah, Enfields are not known for their accuracy due to some accuracy-reducing design features, (esp. the highly sought-after Mk 5 jungle carbine, the subject of mucho forgery now..) but still... I nearly won a Canada-wide military contest in 1968 with a Parker-Hale modded (and with special target iron sights) .303, placing 10 rounds into 46". At 100 m of course... But still, I came in 2nd in all of Canada! Hey: I was young then!
The v. nice Enfield I now own shoots factory ammo into about 1.8 - 2" @ 100 yds. With it's original but quite good battle sights. Quite OK for deer or big moose...
Anyhow, far better, IMHO, than a 62 gr .223 impacting said deer @ 200 m! That's just not ethical, again, IMHO, since you will likely NOt see anything like a quick (within 20 seconds or so) knockdown. He'll likely stagger off and, as with a .22 rimfire wound, die hours or days later. Not for me!
(PS: maybe for hogs, yeah, OK. I have no experience with them, much less with any clustered herd animal in my sights!)
Anyhow, far better, IMHO, than a 62 gr .223 impacting said deer @ 200 m! That's just not ethical, again, IMHO, since you will likely NOt see anything like a quick (within 20 seconds or so) knockdown. He'll likely stagger off and, as with a .22 rimfire wound, die hours or days later. Not for me!
(PS: maybe for hogs, yeah, OK. I have no experience with them, much less with any clustered herd animal in my sights!)
I'd not want to poke a hog with a .223 either. They can be quite a bit larger, tougher, and meaner than deer. The guys I know that hunt pigs use deer rifles of .270 and larger such as the.270, .30-30, .308, .30-06, and .35 Remington- the .30-30 being the most common and the .35 Remington getting a lot of kudos for that role as well.
I'd not want to poke a hog with a .223 either. They can be quite a bit larger, tougher, and meaner than deer. The guys I know that hunt pigs use deer rifles of .270 and larger such as the.270, .30-30, .308, .30-06, and .35 Remington- the .30-30 being the most common and the .35 Remington getting a lot of kudos for that role as well.
Yeah... once, when I was a young buckaroo, I went through magnum fever. My v. first rifle, when I was ≈ 21 or so, was a BSA rifle in 7 Rem Mag. Then I got me a .340 Wby Mk V, Sauer built, which is downright lovely and shoots my reloads into 1" @ 100. But I don't particularly like to shoot it: it would quite work well on pigs, though, eh Flyover?
But now I have grown quite happy with the field performance of such once-considered useless old tymers, like the 30-30-, the near-identical but slightly harder hitting .32 Win Spl, that 35 Rem, and the excellent .348, esp in one them Alaskan wildcat versions. I also have a 45-70 and two 45-90s.
Thing is, the tube magazine bullet tip requirements reduced the ballistics, but if you get some of the Hornady Lever-Evo rounds, with that soft plastic tip, now you've got a 250 yd thutty-thutty!
Which will, I'm v. sure, drop piggs @ anywhere out to that range! And the ol' Winny .94 is remarkably fast!
To Mac_Muz, puma, cougar and mountain lion are all the same animal. They can vary in size depending on the part of the country. That being said show me documented proof of a 800 american lion. African lions which are much, much larger go into the 600 lb range for a male. Here in the U.S. a big tom might go 225lbs.
I stand corrected, but they look bigger when you are standing in a dim enclosed porch, unarmed with one, and blocking it's way to get out! The only hint that any were around ever, was big cat tracks I had seen some weeks before in fresh snow, while out hunting deer. They struck me as the largest Canadian Links Tracks I had ever seen. I was wrong that time too.
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Originally Posted by rifleman
Just curious, Mac, you leftie you! [Good on yah, mate!]
If you had a choice, would you perhaps favor let's say, a 7mm-08 or even ballistically better, a 6.5-08 (260 Win) over that .308? You can, of course, get the AR-10s etc. in those as well, but if you want a military round, then you know the answer.Personally, if I had the moola, I'd get one them LWRC .308 battle rifles the Brits just wisely acquired. NO more puny .223s for them, no sir! Esp. in the far-rtanging battle fronts inThe Greater Sandbox, where ranges tend out to 600+m! Just like Wyoming or MT or central WA, etc.!
Btw, when I acquired my new Springer M1A last year, I learned (and after 45 + yrs of reloading, I pretty much thought I knew it all.. but it seems that yah learn sumthin' new ev'ry day though, huh, man?) that you usually need to download the hot standard .308 hunting loads about 100-150 fps to preserve the less strong reciver and bolts groups of semi-autos. Hornady's latest manual lists Service Rifle Loads for all those black and brown (M1A) rifles.
Answer: use a new Marlin 45-70 1895 SS lever gun ported & with all-stainless metalwork, and with laminated stock! Then have it accurized (to take away the recent cruddo fabrication problems that occurred when they were bought and then restructured by "Remlington"!)
I own a 6.5 x 54MS shooter made by Mauser, and that ammo can be some hard to come by at anything like a reasonable price.
7mm ammo in a necked down 7.62 case would not be any where near that hard to come by nor would anything else, as that 6.5 either, BUT i would still want the .308, and because it IS the more common round of these 3.
It's true i shoot long guns lefty too Also i have never had the chance to try a 7mm -08 or a 6.5 -08, and am not really up on their specific ballistics, other than being a lighter rounds and so probably faster, flatter shooting and in the about same ballistic ball park.
That 6.5 x 54MS has no place in my SHTF mind set other than a item to trade.
I use it to hunt deer with now though. The case is similar to carcano 6.5 x 52, and or 6.5 x 55 swedish mauser. NOT the .308 case.
Ethically speaking I see no difference in the gun style, but I do in bullet size.
I like the .223 on paper...
I have a question for you......
Are there hunting bullets for 7.62 x 51 NATO if you reload, that are similar to .308 hunting projectile bullets?
wow... first off by AR im not talkin just 223..i mean the "hunting" styled AR style rifle in 15 plus calibers..
second ya'll misunderstood me..i own just 2 blackpowders yet...3 ARs plus 2 interchangeable uppers:
16" 223
24" heavy barrel 223
20" 6.8spc
20" 308
and last but not least my 50 beuwolf
third I have been texas hog huntin and enjoy it..i enjoy the 6.8spc and 50 fir those hunts works very well
fourth I am about as anti gun as you can get..and then some...I just gotta ponder if glassing game at 500 thru a x24 leupold atop an AR type rifle(in a big boy caliber let it be known)and start clippin off rounds is completely ethical...this is kinda my revised version of this thread
PS: for first time AR rifle buyers before you buy let me tell you this:resist buying a tacticoool 16" collapsing stock style,there good at plinkin and shootin small game under 150 meters...and scaring the sh** outta big brother besides that their crap..get a 6.8 instead,love this caliber,the gf loves it too...and its not a 22...if u like the 223 caliber buy a 10/22 and 50rd clips instead and shoot for 5cents a round
In THAT case, yer REALLY gonna hate the internally-suppressed AK I ordered from Red Jacket a coupla weeks ago...with a side folder, in 5.56! Gonna take 'em a while ta build it - it'll be the first one they've done that way.
I see no reason why the gun wouldn't be ethical as long as the cartridge/bullet are properly matched to the game. The 5.56 ARs are good for varmints, bobcat, mountain lion, coyotes, wolves, smaller deer, etc.
Yeah... once, when I was a young buckaroo, I went through magnum fever. My v. first rifle, when I was ≈ 21 or so, was a BSA rifle in 7 Rem Mag. Then I got me a .340 Wby Mk V, Sauer built, which is downright lovely and shoots my reloads into 1" @ 100. But I don't particularly like to shoot it: it would quite work well on pigs, though, eh Flyover?
The .340 Bee should work well on pigs if loaded up with a properly-constructed bullet. Anything shooting a 250 grain bullet at 3000 fps ought to Since you reload, have you thought of dialing back the .340 to .338 Federal kinds of power levels? I doubt a pig will notice the difference between a 200 grain bullet moving at 2650 fps compared to one moving at 3250 fps, but your shoulder sure will.
Quote:
But now I have grown quite happy with the field performance of such once-considered useless old tymers, like the 30-30-, the near-identical but slightly harder hitting .32 Win Spl, that 35 Rem, and the excellent .348, esp in one them Alaskan wildcat versions. I also have a 45-70 and two 45-90s.
Thing is, the tube magazine bullet tip requirements reduced the ballistics, but if you get some of the Hornady Lever-Evo rounds, with that soft plastic tip, now you've got a 250 yd thutty-thutty!
Which will, I'm v. sure, drop piggs @ anywhere out to that range! And the ol' Winny .94 is remarkably fast!
It is pretty interesting that the older shooters nearly always tend to gravitate towards old unsexy rounds like the .30-30, .35 Remington, .257 Bob, 7x57 Mauser, .30-06, etc.
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Originally Posted by Mac_Muz
I own a 6.5 x 54MS shooter made by Mauser, and that ammo can be some hard to come by at anything like a reasonable price.
7mm ammo in a necked down 7.62 case would not be any where near that hard to come by nor would anything else, as that 6.5 either, BUT i would still want the .308, and because it IS the more common round of these 3.
The .260 Remington is pretty difficult to find but you can get 7mm-08 rounds pretty much anywhere anymore as it has started to replace the .243 as the low-recoiling deer cartridge of choice. It is almost as popular as the .308 and is more commonly found in my observation than any magnum besides the 7mm Rem Mag and .300 Win Mag.
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It's true i shoot long guns lefty too Also i have never had the chance to try a 7mm -08 or a 6.5 -08, and am not really up on their specific ballistics, other than being a lighter rounds and so probably faster, flatter shooting and in the about same ballistic ball park.
That 6.5 x 54MS has no place in my SHTF mind set other than a item to trade.
I use it to hunt deer with now though. The case is similar to carcano 6.5 x 52, and or 6.5 x 55 swedish mauser. NOT the .308 case.
The 7mm-08 is essentially equal to the 7x57 Mauser if you stick to 140-150 grain bullets. The 7x57 will do better with longer pills, especially if it's chambered in a regular long-action rifle and you can have bullets seated out a good ways. The .260 Remington is about equal to the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser but again works in a short action. Both the .260 Remington and 7mm-08 are noted in the U.S. to be very effective on deer-sized game and have low recoil. Neither are quite as powerful as the .308 but unless you're hunting game larger than deer I doubt you would notice any difference.
Quote:
Ethically speaking I see no difference in the gun style, but I do in bullet size.
I like the .223 on paper...
I have a question for you......
Are there hunting bullets for 7.62 x 51 NATO if you reload, that are similar to .308 hunting projectile bullets?
Any bullet that will work in a .308 will work in a 7.62x51 as they both use standard .308 diameter .30 caliber bullets. In fact the external cartridge dimensions of the .308 and 7.62x51 are identical and the only difference between the two are that the 7.62x51 brass is a little thicker and the chamber tolerances for headspace in the 7.62x51 are a few thousands longer. You can shoot 7.62x51 out of a .308 perfectly fine, but the opposite might cause trouble with thinner-walled .308 brass if your 7.62x51's chamber is on the looser side.
The unethical thing is that a 223 or 5.56 is not a good hunting round for deer sized game and above.
Why would anyone be using a .223 on deer-sized game? Up here in Ontario, using anything less than a .243 is illegall for deer hunting. The .223 is a varmint round... Terrible for deer hunting, but excellent on coyotes!
Personally, I used a Remington 7600 .30-06 with 180 grain bullets and a 3-9x scope for deer. I'm not one who enjoys using follow-up shots or having to track them further than 50 yards.
fourth I am about as anti gun as you can get..and then some...I just gotta ponder if glassing game at 500 thru a x24 leupold atop an AR type rifle(in a big boy caliber let it be known)and start clippin off rounds is completely ethical...this is kinda my revised version of this thread
Any decent off the shelf AR10 should be able to hit the boiler room in a deer-sized target at 500 yards without breaking a sweat. I have two that'll do half minute out to that range (they are custom builds).
It might be difficult for the shooter who doesn't get out and practice regularly, or one who thinks "minute of rabbit" accuracy is good enough, but the rifle is capable of it.
Whether or not the shot can be taken safely and ethically is another story. Is there a high wind or not that day? What about visibility - is it clear or foggy? Is the sun behind you or are you shooting into glare? Is the animal moving or not? Has the shooter regularly practiced at that range (and further)? If you do end up making a bad shot do you have a buddy with you who can follow up?
Also, I'm not sure if you've priced ammo recently, but it's gotten way too expensive to be "clipping off rounds" when hunting.
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Also i have never had the chance to try a 7mm -08 or a 6.5 -08, and am not really up on their specific ballistics, other than being a lighter rounds and so probably faster, flatter shooting and in the about same ballistic ball park.
works very well 
