Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I think you will find that most of the "ranters" are single females (including me). You should also note that the study indicated that in 2006 (you need to read the fine print to determine that the poverty figures were actually based on the prior year's income) 19.9% of females living alone were poor. (Appendix, page 82) The poverty groups also included those receiving cash benefits. What happens when you cut the cash benefits? And of course, there are those who make $1 or $2 more than the official poverty cutoff and fall in the "low income" group (income between 100-199% of the federal poverty amount.) Still dirt poor.
All of these figures were before the effects of the Great Recession were realized. (Which the study did mention in the introductory materials.)
I do not consider you a "ranter". One can be passionate, even angry, yet still maintain a certain rationality and objectivity.
Good grace Robyn, have you ever even troubled yourself to think about WHY these poor people are still working? And should they?
Do you think you are doing them a favor to ALLOW them to work for you?
By God we can do better than this in America!
They obviously work because they have to. What would you do to change this?
And with some people - I am doing them a favor. I've kept people on long after they couldn't really do the work I was paying them to do. And paid them a lot more than the prevailing wage for what they were doing. I've paid both ends of SS even though I was under no legal obligation to do so. Note that I spent most of my adult live in Miami. Where it was/is totally normally to employ illegals - and pay them below minimum wage "off the books". I'm no saint - but I've always been a decent employer. Robyn
...Now there are posters among us who deny my middle class existence and call it "my fond memories of the good ol days back on the ranch." I don't think so...
I'm not one of them. My husband and I both grew up pretty much like you did. The problem is that that the world today is not the world of the 1950's. If you read the aging report I linked above - there are many things that correlate with poverty. Like having a high school education or less. My husband's father and my father were able to have decent but not grand middle class lifestyles although they weren't college graduates. That became less and less true over the years.
It is still possible to make a living without a college education (or without using it). E.g., my knife sharpener came and sharpened our knives yesterday. I don't know whether he has a college degree - but he makes a good living sharpening knives (both for restaurants and individuals). Still - he had to have some business skills to do what he did. Saving money to buy his truck (which contains a small shop) - going around and getting clients - and - most important - being professional and doing an excellent job. I am sure there are other people like him. But people trying to do the kind of work he does face long odds (if for no other reason than most Americans don't particularly value good workmanship). IOW - without a good education and a good set of skills designed for today's jobs - the odds of making it beyond the bottom rung of the ladder are pretty bad. Robyn
Yes, this is scary stuff because low paying service jobs, contract & temp workers with no benefits appears to be the way forward.
I am a woman and a member of the "silent generation", those born between 1925-1945. Not a good time for women as far as equal rights. Remember "Rosie the Riviters" who was expected to give up their jobs to the men returning home from the war and to resume her homemaking duties in the home?
I am the daughter of a blue collar auto worker, as were most of my friends. In high school we had a choice of two curriculums, college prep or business. Girls who took the college prep usually went on to college to become nurses or teachers. Not many people thought of girls enrolling in medical, law or engineering school. That was for boys. Of course there were a few exceptions such as; Sandra Day O'Conner & Robin 55. Those girls were typically from upscale families that had been college educated for generations. That lifestyle certainly was not part of my world where I grew up. The girls that studied business, took typing, shorthand & bookkeeping classes. There was no such thing as business management classes. Upon graduation, the girls who didn't go on to college became secretaries, if they were pretty enough, flight attendents, if they were pretty enough. Some became assembly line workers in the factories because there were no apprentice programs for girls to become machinists, or welders. Those opportunites were only open for the boys. But, most of the girls went on to dead end clerical jobs.
Back in that time, I remember looking at the help wanted ads in the Sunday paper. There were seperate columns of job listings. Columns headed help wanted- men & help wanted- women. The mens listings consisted of admininstrative & trade jobs. The womens listings were office & clerical.
The womens movement geared up in the early 70's, but fizzled out in the middle of the decade. It was not until the mid 80's that any significant progress was made. By that time the youngest members of the "silent generation" were 40 years old. Now, we were facing age discrimination and it was much too late for those before us.
My point to this post, is that women of the "silent generation" were for the most part doomed to low paying jobs. The only hope for a nice middle income lifestyle was to find a loyal ambitious husband that had the freedom to advance in his career and provide that existence for them. The single, or divorced women, sometimes supporting children never earned enough money to save much for retirement or look forward to a decent SS check. I realize that some women of that generation escaped the trap, but they are certainly a small minority. There are millions of women of that generation that are struggling financially in retirement through no fault of their own.
The boys of the "silent generation" had their own struggles. If they did not go to college, they went into the military in order to satisfy their draft obligations. Many of the later "silent generation" and early "boomers" who did not have the opportunity to go to college ended up in Viet Nam. Early on, the privleged college kids got deferments.
So, those of you who like to brag and look down on other members of society, maybe it is time to take the time to reflect and realize that maybe you were born into privlege, inherited money, been in the right place at the right time, or were just plain lucky. Maybe you had a nice partner to take care of things at home or a strong support system who encouraged you every step of the way. Maybe you were blessed with good genes and intelligence, but you are no better than the person who has worked hard their entire lives but were not so blessed.
Actually my brothers and cousins were the first men on my father's side of the family to go to college. My mother and her brother did go to college - and were the first people in their families to do so.
I agree in general with your description of the state of women - at least when I was born and grew up. I was one of 30 women in a class of 600 at Law School (Class of '71). But - as you also pointed out - opportunities for women have increased dramatically - especially starting in the 80's. The oldest of those women are 50ish now. And - since most proposals to reform Medicare apply to people who are 55 or younger - their effects will be relatively small in terms of the kind of women you're talking about. Of course - one notable exception to this is Obamacare - with its emphasis on reducing/eliminating Medicare Advantage - a program used disproportionately by lower income seniors. We'll have to see how that one plays out. Robyn
Wow, great post. I wasn't part of your generation, but I have similar memories. In high school there was the general track, business track and college track. For girls, business track meant secretary and college track meant teacher or nurse. I chose Registered Nurse. And yes, I also remember the employment ads; white male, white female, colored male & colored female. It wasn't until I was significantly older and had 3 children that I returned to undergrad, grad and law school.
My parents were poor and I grew up in a lower income family. My father, when he was 7 years old, watched his 34 year old mother die at home because they didn't have the money to pay for medical care. His youngest sibling died at home because they didn't have money for health care. Ditto for my mother's youngest brother. My father worked two jobs to purchase a (very) small home. We did not have vacations, etc. So I stayed home and read a lot.
I know what happens when people don't have money for health care or food and it's horrifying. (In addition to being stupid.)
Although I usually try to have a back up plan for every conceivable thing that can happen (blame it on my inner bag lady) I just can't formulate a plan for all of this. I'm suffering from "outrage fatigue" and I'm about ready to throw in the towel, move away and say to hell with it all. Really. I don't want to live in a country that would knowingly allow its children and seniors to starve or not receive medical care. I'm used to battling the authorities when they f*** up the administrative rules or violate laws, but when half of the population knowingly pursues an agenda that would hurt kids & seniors, it makes me physically ill. I give up.
Thank you for your kind comment. You worked hard and eventually went on to gain the education you needed to make a better future for yourself. More importantly, you never forgot where you came from which makes you have empathy and compasion for those less fortunate. You are truly inspiring!
I too went on to college and got an accounting degree. It took me many years because of having to work full time and raise my young daughter on my own. The piece of paper didn't do much good in the way of wages because employers still looked upon female accountants as bookkeepers. One good thing though, my skills were in demand and I never had trouble finding a job. Employers learned that females made very good accountants and better yet they could hire them for less money than men. Wasn't exactly fair to the men looking for work. These employers offered no benefits except for health insurance because they didn't have to. There were so many people flooding into the Phoenix area that there was always several people for every open position who were willing to work for low wages and no benefits just to have a job. That was the environment for the 33 years that I lived in Phoenix.
In 2002 I purchased several new invesment homes with those no doc loans and a couple of land parcels through tax liens. In 2004, I became frightened because of the soaring home prices in the area. I sold my properties and walked away with a very nice profit. In 2005, I sold my home at an inflated price and left the state.
Today, I live in a low COL area in my small condo that I paid cash for and an older car with low mileage that also is paid for. I have no debt. Therefore, I am able to live quite comfortably, However, I cannot afford luxurious cruises & vacations, which is O.K. because I do not care about those luxuries. I give thanks everyday for my good fortune, but I do realize all of this could change overnight with one catastrope event. Unfortunately, I do depend on the labled entitlement programs of SS & Medicare. Wish I didn't have to, but it is what it is.
There has been a lot of good people hurt from the real estate bust and the subsequent Recession. They did everything right but became victims of the greed & fraud of others. I often think about the 40's something couple who bought my house for $217,000 and put 20% down. Today, houses like theirs are on the market for less than $100,000 and still not selling. I guess some would accuse them of not doing proper retirement planning.
Yes, it is hard to try & plan and cover unexpected events when so much of what is going on in society is simply out of our control. For the most part, we are forced to just wait & wonder.
It is a very interesting book. Ehrenreich worked as a waitress in Florida, a maid in New England, and a retail clerk for Walmart in Minnesota I believe. I'm sure the plight of these people is infinitely worse than it was then and many were just "getting by" ten years ago.
What stood out was that I would have expected market forces to have pushed the wages of these people up over time. Yet, it seemed to not do so. I attribute this to technology that allowed employers to do the same work with fewer employees, the desperation and lack of knowledge that the people seeking these jobs have when they apply for work, and a supply of illegal aliens/undocumented workers that results in a seemingly inexhaustible pool of labor for many unskilled jobs.
Capitalism does not work well for some in this country.
I don't know about Minnesota and New England - but Key West was always a place that attracted marginal people with questionable work habits. There were lots of drugs and booze as well. It would not be high on my list of places to find a decent job of any kind - especially in the service sector. We have a big university near where I live - UNF The vast majority of students work almost full time jobs to pay for their educations. Many work as servers and bartenders - and they know the best places to work in terms of work conditions - hours - tips - benefits - etc. They are also lucky that the university is very close to a new major mall - the St. Johns Town Center - which has many upscale chain restaurants.
Unfortunately - being a server at a place like this is not a job for most older people (too strenuous physically). OTOH - I do see a lot of seniors working doing less strenuous things. Some work at Publix - the best grocery chain we have around here. I will note that Publix has always been an unusual employer in that it seeks out non-traditional employees (especially people with handicaps) - and tries to put them in positions that match their mental and physical abilities.
And just FWIW - when construction was still doing ok in Florida - there were lots of semi-skilled construction workers where I live who had zero work ethic. They would collect their pay checks on Friday - go on a drug and/or booze bender for the weekend - and fail to show up at work on Monday. Many lost their drivers' licenses (and their ability to get to work) as a result of DUIs and accidents - so they lost their jobs. I saw this kind of behavior more among young single white males than people in other demographic groups (blacks - Hispanics - immigrants from eastern Europe - older white men - etc. - who were more likely to be married and pretty religious). Robyn
Actually my brothers and cousins were the first men on my father's side of the family to go to college. My mother and her brother did go to college - and were the first people in their families to do so...
Guess I forgot to mention that I and my female cousins were the first women to go to college on my father's side of the family. My parents - as first generation Americans raised by 4 poor immigrant parents - believed very strongly that education was a major key to the American dream. And I do too.
And - I didn't marry well either (at least that's what everyone but me thought at the time ). Neither of my husband's parents went to college - and he (my husband) had to work his way through school doing things like working on the assembly line at the Ford Motor Company.
Overall though - I agree that things were a lot easier for the generation(s) of women who came after ours. Robyn
My brother a si where the first to go to college. My father who was from pennsyvannia quit school in 8th grade to go to work because his father died. My mother graduated high school. My older three sisters never went to college and married very happily . One died of cancer and the other two are still happily married.My brother-in-laws are more like brothers as they were like sons to my parents. I am very greatful for being so blessed. When I ask my sisters they said that they wouldn't have changed it because they wouldn't have met their husbands which was thru where they worked altho not working with them.I met my wife at work and we are both now retired.All my parents Grandchildren (9) have now finished college with the last this spring and she has already accepted a job with a large company that pays well.
This forum often has threads discussing home owership in retirement. Folks are making decisions on spending money in retirement by buying new houses and taking on a mortgage etc. I suspect there are those who feel instead of doing this they should be paying full cost for their health care. It is a complicated topic and we face many challenges moving forward trying to deal with the health care challenges.
This forum often has threads discussing home owership in retirement. Folks are making decisions on spending money in retirement by buying new houses and taking on a mortgage etc. I suspect there are those who feel instead of doing this they should be paying full cost for their health care. It is a complicated topic and we face many challenges moving forward trying to deal with the health care challenges.
I am more of a pragmatic than an intensely ideological political person in terms of how I live my life. My husband is more ideological - but he never spent 5 minutes figuring out how we'd get health insurance after he was diagnosed with MS. So I did. Like SCBaker (think it was she) said - I think all women - no matter what their station in life - have a secret fear of becoming a bag lady. From the minute my husband was diagnosed with MS decades ago - I felt like that character in Valley of the Dolls whose husband got sick. Which is not to say we don't travel or dine at a luxury level a fair amount. But we always kept our everyday continuing costs at a comfy level. And that includes housing. We've always looked at the places where we've lived (rented or owned) - as places to live - not investments.
For the most part - I never ask why the health care system or the tax system or any other system is what it is. I just try to understand these systems best I can today - try to figure out what might happen in the future - and deal with things best I can. And I think that's a good way to approach things. If you're not on Medicare - learn about it. What it will probably cost - what it will cover. Learn about tax-advantaged retirement savings options (or plans to send kids or grandkids to college - whatever). There are lots of tax breaks on the books for regular people. Makes more sense for regular people to understand and use them best they can than to excoriate the very rich or the very poor who have their own separate bags of tricks.
And I don't know what middle class people should pay for middle class entitlements (although my first guess would be "everything" - the middle being the middle). I took a course at Cornell Adult University maybe 15-20 years ago (actually one of many) - on US entitlement programs. The professors were an avowed Communist and an avowed Socialist. And their POV was that you could never get broad-based programs that helped the poor unless the middle class got a benefit from them too. Because - for the most part - middle class people won't support programs for most of the poor in the US today (especially if they happen to be black single mothers with 4 kids). I thought at the time that this was a very interesting point - and it has increasing resonance today IMO as entitlement programs seem to enrich the middle class more than they do the poor. Robyn
Last edited by Robyn55; 04-16-2011 at 06:07 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
). Neither of my husband's parents went to college - and he (my husband) had to work his way through school doing things like working on the assembly line at the Ford Motor Company.
