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Old 09-01-2012, 07:44 PM
 
26,784 posts, read 22,561,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
Yes he did before 1941 and Barbarossa there was 1939 when Russia attacked Poland and 1940 when Soviet Russia attacked Finland and Romania stealing territories from both countries. Who attacked first?

Its hard for you to reject Soviet propaganda who never admited that Stalin was the aggressive side in WWII. Read this:

German–Soviet Axis talks

In October and November 1940, German–Soviet Axis talks occurred concerning the Soviet Union's potential entry as a fourth Axis Power. The negotiations included a two-day Berlin conference between Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov, Adolf Hitler and German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop, followed by both countries trading written proposed agreements. Germany never responded to a November 25, 1940, Soviet proposal, leaving the negotiations unresolved. Germany broke the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in June 1941 by invading the Soviet Union.

German
Right, that "entry" was proposed as much as Stalin was "offered" the Marchall's plan aid...
It has got nothing to do with "propaganda," it's just my personal belief that Stalin didn't trust anyone ( talking about the West,) he could sense that the world war was coming and he was trying to position his country the best he could under the circumstances; at this point the "buffer zones" were essential indeed. The size of territory mattered.
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by erasure View Post
It's called "collateral damage"; after all Russians didn't end up in Central Europe by accident.
I am not a big fan of a Russian boot all over Europe, but I can see why it happened.
If you see why it happened and understand that Stalin disregarded all previous agreements and established puppet governments in Central Europe, against wishes of these countries, can't you see how this caused the alleis to stop thinking about Soviet Russia as an ally?
Remember this was happening 1944 well before the end of war.

Last edited by rebel12; 09-01-2012 at 08:44 PM..
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Taking in consideration the history of relations between Russia and Poland ( and particularly the faith of thousands of Russian servicemen murdered in Polish camps back in 1919-20ies,) there is no surprise that Poland was not trusted by Stalin.

In Poland, with the memory of the fallen Red Army memorial plaque removed in Russian | Last World News
What Soviet servicemen were murdered in Poland in 1919-1920? As I recall in 1920 Poland was still fighting for its independence with the Soviets. Do you have any reliable source other than Russian newspaper?
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Right, that "entry" was proposed as much as Stalin was "offered" the Marchall's plan aid...
It has got nothing to do with "propaganda," it's just my personal belief that Stalin didn't trust anyone ( talking about the West,) he could sense that the world war was coming and he was trying to position his country the best he could under the circumstances; at this point the "buffer zones" were essential indeed. The size of territory mattered.
And this was an excuse to attack Poland, Finland and Romania? The way the world saw it Stalin cooperated with Germans Read this:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germa...ment#section_3
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
What Soviet servicemen were murdered in Poland in 1919-1920? As I recall in 1920 Poland was still fighting for its independence with the Soviets. Do you have any reliable source other than Russian newspaper?
Why, here...

Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:45 PM
 
26,784 posts, read 22,561,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
If you see why it happened and understand that Stalin disregarded all previous agreements and established puppet government in Central Europe, against wishes of these countries, you see how this caused the alleis to stop thinking about Soviet Russia as an ally.
No? Remember this was happening 1944 well before the end of war.
Are you telling me that Stalin was EVER regarded as a TRUE ally by the Western Powers before that happened?
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
And this was an excuse to attack Poland, Finland and Romania?
Yes, particularly if you see on the map the distance between Finland and St. Petersburg.

Quote:
The way the world saw it Stalin cooperated with Germans Read this:

German
And how did the world see the Munich agreement?
Read this

Munich Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

( You think Stalin was not making his conclusions?
He was.)
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
I don't see anything about any murders in the article you quoted. Did you read it?


The issue was finally settled in 2004, where a joint team of Polish and Russian historians (prof. Waldemar Rezmer and prof. Zbigniew Karpus from Nicolaus Copernicus University in Toruń and prof. Gennady Matveyev from Moscow State University), after reexamining documents from Polish and Russian archives published their results (printed in Russia by Federal Agency for Russian Archives). Their findings show that the number of Russian POWs can be estimated at between 80,000 and 85,000, and that the number of deaths in the camps can be estimated from 16,000 (Karpus, Rezmer) to 20,000 (Matveyev). Existing documents and proofs does not also confirm thesis made by many Russian historians that Russian POWs were specially exterminated in Polish camps because of their nationality, religion or other

issues. [1][9] They also show that the main cause of death were various illnesses and epidemics (influenza, typhus, cholera and dysentery), noting that these diseases also took a heavy toll among

fighting soldiers and the civilian population. [1]
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Yes, particularly if you see on the map the distance between Finland and St. Petersburg.
So because Finland was so close it is absolutely ok to attack and take part of Finnish territory???
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post


And how did the world see the Munich agreement?
Read this

Munich Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

( You think Stalin was not making his conclusions?
He was.)
Not even close to secret paragraphs of Ribbentrop-Molotov and subsequent Russian aggression on Poland.
Hitler attacked Poland together with Stalin. What are you comparing here?
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Old 09-01-2012, 09:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Are you telling me that Stalin was EVER regarded as a TRUE ally by the Western Powers before that happened?
Of course. Not as friend but ally. In
1944 after Stalin decided to occupy the countries of Central Europe by installing puppet governments against wishes of these countries and agreements with the allies, he slowly moved to the position of enemy. It was clearly his choice.
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