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GS, I find your attempt to deny the comparison between Nixon, OJ and Ted Bundy a rather thinly veiled one at best.
Then you are very much mistaken. I have explained the function of the analogy, that you insist on an obviously false interpretation strikes me as inexplicable. If I wrote "Calling the Titanic large would be like calling Death Valley warm", you would understand that I am not comparing the Titanic to Death Valley, rather I am comparing two pieces of understatement, wouldn't you? Why are you not understanding that this same thing applies to the analogies I have used regarding Watergate? Because you just don't want to understand? Because it paints those disagreeing with you in a false light and convenience outweighs truth?
You further exhibit dishonesty by characterizing my comments about Nixon as
Quote:
foaming at the mouth gangster Nixon with well fitting bloody glove, and rose garden full of dead puppies.
Please produce any quote from any of my posts which remotely suggest such a thing. And when you cannot, how about an apology?
Among the achievements cited for President Nixon, we frequently see detente with the Soviets and the opening of relations with China listed as major triumphs.
That is something of a bumper sticker way of looking at matters. Detente with the Soviets did not turn out to represent anything in the way of long range benefits, did it? It was a temporary thawing of hostilities which were refrozen in 1979 when the Soviets launched their invasion of Afghanistan. Seven years after detente, relations were right back where they had been before Nixon's diplomatic efforts. Detente was a blip on the radar, a pause in the Cold War, not anything which helped end it.
If detente had actually amounted to anything, then the Republicans would not have had their champion Ronald Reagan "winning" the Cold War in the '80's, would they?
As for the opening of normalized relations with China, that was a very much needed action, but it was accomplished by Nixon rather than by any of the Democrats who had been advocating just such a course for years because had a Democrat attempted to do it, he would have been shouted down and severely attacked as a traitor and Communist sympathizer by....Richard Nixon, who first came to national prominence as a red baiting Congressman from California. It is very much the same dynamic as that which allowed a democrat president, Bill Clinton, to be the one to push through the first significant welfare reform bill. Had a Republican tried to do it, he or she would have come under fire from Democrats claiming that the bill was the product of heartless, uncaring, wealthy white men.
In truth, welfare reform was a Republican issue, and establishing normalized relations with China had always been a Democrat issue. That Nixon wound up getting credit for China, and Clinton wound up getting credit for welfare reform, were products of the political atmosphere which prevailed, not true achievements by those actors. In both cases it was a matter of people from the political party which had been preventing an action, stepping in and taking credit.
So, I am not that impressed by Nixon's great international accomplishments. One was a temporary timeout in a war which resumed, the other was something that could have been achieved sooner had not Nixon and others invested so much time in blocking it.
Another noteworthy defender of Nixon (by accident) was Robert Bork. The special prosecutor Archie Cox needed to be fired for his subpoena to Nixon for more tapes, but Nixon did not want to release them in raw form to Cox. Nixon had already released transcripts of the tapes, and made offer to have Senator Stennis listen to tapes and transcribe them for Cox, which he rejected. Nixon ordered Elliot Richardson (his third and not so compliant Attorney General) to fire Cox and seize the files from the prosecutors office. Richardson refused and then resigned, as did the Deputy Attorney General William Ruckelshaus. So this left Solicitor General Robert Bork (third in line) to ponder the situation. Richardson told Bork he should go ahead and fire Cox, because somebody competent must remain in charge to carry out the duties at the Justice Department. Bork fired Cox with the reasoning that a president cannot be faced down in public by an subordinate official, he remained as acting Attorney General until William Saxbe took over a few months later as the 5th (if you count Ruckelshaus) and final Attorney General for Nixon.
So Bork fired Cox and took over the prosecutors office, causing a huge public backlash, and forced Nixon to release some of the tapes, and Leon Jaworski took over the job of prosecutor against Nixon as they fought it out, eventually reaching the Supreme Court, and as MarkG has mentioned, the executive privilege argument did not fly. But it bought Nixon some more time to do other small tasks such as draft a healthcare proposal in the spring of 1974 for Ted Kennedy to shoot down, like he did for Robert Bork's nomination to the Supreme Court in 1987.
One thing I never understood about the failed Bork nomination, Why did Senator Stennis of Mississippi (the man that Nixon trusted to listen to his tapes) vote NO with 5 other republicans against Bork? I would think Stennis would be totally on board for Bork.
Love Nixon or hate him, Ben Stein is entitled to his opinion and it's better informed than my opinion, since Nixon was his friend and mentor. I respect that relationship. On the other hand, Ben seems to have gone a little daft on the topic of evolution. He should know better. Actually, I'm pretty sure he does.
You may take your "truth" about Nixon from Ben Stein, or if you wait until July 29th, there will be:
The Nixon Defense: What He Knew and When He Knew It Hardcover
by John W. Dean
From the description:
Quote:
Based on Nixon’s overlooked recordings, New York Times bestselling author John W. Dean connects the dots between what we’ve come to believe about Watergate and what actually happened....
......Through narrative and contemporaneous dialogue, Dean connects dots that have never been connected, including revealing how and why the Watergate break-in occurred, what was on the mysterious 18 1/2 minute gap in Nixon’s recorded conversations, and more.
Dean enjoys a rather rare distinction. We often speak of people who were "proven liars" after some evidence was unearthed which exposed their false versions of some event. Dean was validated as a "proven truth teller" by the release of the tapes.
So, who will win your money... the proven truth teller, or the guy who denies evolution?
And if you can wait until September 2nd, this book is being published:
Nixon's Secrets: The Truth About Watergate and the Pardon Hardcover
by Roger Stone
From the description:
Quote:
Roger Stone, the New York Times bestselling author of The Man Who Killed Kennedy, gives us the inside scoop on how Nixon avoided prosecution after the Watergate scandal. Using Gen Al Haig as his agent, Nixon let Vice President Ford know that he would expose the CIA's involvement in the JFK assassination and Ford's role in altering autopsy records for the Warren Commission if he went to trial in the Watergate scandal. “Tell them if Dick Nixon's going down I'm taking everyone down with me, that prick [CIA Director Richard] Helms, Lyndon, and Jerry Ford are going down with me” was the way Haig phrased it.
1. I don't believe the CIA had a role in JFK's assassination.
2. I don't believe Al Haig would participate in a blackmail scheme even though I never cared for Haig.
3. I don't believe Gerald Ford altered autopsy records for the Warren Commission, or that he would have had the capacity to do so.
This is just looney conspiracy theory.
Ford's motives in pardoning Nixon were decent motives. He wanted the country to be able to put Watergate behind it after being absorbed in all its intricacies for eighteen months. Gerry Ford was the decent sort who had many distinguished years in Congress. This author's view of him is one of the silliest I've ever heard of.
Nixon is a complex figure. However, there is a bottom line to him that Mofford doesn't acknowledge. While I would concede he accomplished some important things as President, he was basically a disturbed and amoral man. He may have been the most paranoid person to serve as President in history. Most of his actions were governed by fear that others would destroy him. He told aides when he appeared on television that he was absolutely convinced a t.v. person would "pull a plug" during the middle of a broadcast and no one would hear him speak and he would look crazy. His creation of an enemies list, wiretapping, and dozens of other actions were a direct result of his paranoia.
In short, while technically competent, he was too dangerous a man to serve as President. An incompetent, but less dangerous person was a better bet to lead our country.
Last edited by markg91359; 07-03-2014 at 08:10 PM..
I hope by "we" you are referencing you and Roger Stone. I brought the book to the forum's attention, but there was no endorsement intended. The theory presented does indeed smack of classic conspiracy theory dynamics, but of course not having read the book, I'm in no position to condemn or promote it.
If any of it is true, I hope it is the Nixon quote supposedly supplied by Al Haig. The language and spirit are consistent with what we heard on the released tapes, so it isn't implausible.
I hope by "we" you are referencing you and Roger Stone. I brought the book to the forum's attention, but there was no endorsement intended. The theory presented does indeed smack of classic conspiracy theory dynamics, but of course not having read the book, I'm in no position to condemn or promote it.
If any of it is true, I hope it is the Nixon quote supposedly supplied by Al Haig. The language and spirit are consistent with what we heard on the released tapes, so it isn't implausible.
One odd thing about the quote, though (I mean, besides the lurid conspiracy silliness):
Quote:
Roger Stone, the New York Times bestselling author of The Man Who Killed Kennedy, gives us the inside scoop on how Nixon avoided prosecution after the Watergate scandal. Using Gen Al Haig as his agent, Nixon let Vice President Ford know that he would expose the CIA's involvement in the JFK assassination and Ford's role in altering autopsy records for the Warren Commission if he went to trial in the Watergate scandal. “Tell them if Dick Nixon's going down I'm taking everyone down with me, that prick [CIA Director Richard] Helms, Lyndon, and Jerry Ford are going down with me” was the way Haig phrased it.
OK, since the statement references 'Vice President Ford', it would have been made no earlier than late 1973 - Nixon nominated Ford to replace the resigned Agnew in October, and he was confirmed by the Senate and House by early December. Now, in the quote I am guessing that 'Lyndon' refers to LBJ. So, per the quote Nixon was going to take down, among others, former President Lyndon Johnson. One problem - by that time LBJ was beyond taking down, having died two days into Nixon's second term.
Nixon would have known that, and so he would have said no such thing. However, decades later, whoever made up the quote out of whole cloth - be it to sell books or sell oneself as a source or merely for attention - seems to have forgotten the timeline of President Johnson's life. Maybe Haig can be contacted for clarification. Oh, drat, he's dead! Ever notice how the juiciest quotes come from people no longer around to dispute them? Odd, that!
I wonder if Dean the truth teller would have testified the way he did, if he knew the immunity deal they promised him was going to turn into 4 months in prison and being disbarred for life from practicing law. Especially if he knew the other big fish in Watergate were not going to serve long prison sentences either. Mitchell served 19 months, Haldeman and Erlichman got 18 months and Magruder got 7 months. Dean was a traitor to Nixon and the men he worked with, he became a tool for the democrats and I think of him as a turncoat. I think McCord and Dean should have remained silent, they knew the game they were playing, and the risks involved. When it went wrong they should have shut up, took their lumps, and took their payoff money for saving the administration from doom.
Howard Baker was right about what he said of Dean, that he was the worst criminal in Watergate. Nobody played a bigger role than Dean, he was manager of all the players and the illegal activities of the cover up, he was there from the beginning when the plan was being presented, and became officer of the cover up, he tutored Magruder and Porter to get them ready for their perjury, he organized everything including the payoffs. The tapes show doubt that Nixon knew exactly what was going on with Watergate at the beginning, he seems confused about who did what in those first few days after the burglars were caught. Magruder says Nixon knew and approved, but some of the white house conversations with his top aids indicate he seemed surprised about what happened and did not seem to know who did what until he was briefed. Yes, Nixon had a hand in the cover up, but he needed willing men like Dean to orchestrate the cover up.
Dean was the smartest of Nixon's men (except perhaps Fred Larue). He should have known better and should have gave strong resistance to those activities from the beginning. He was counsel to the president, he was supposed to be the guy that says "That's illegal Mr. President, that's too dangerous Mr. President, if you want me to do this for you I want it in writing (like Hoover might say). Or at least lay it out for them in a way that puts fear into them, makes them think twice. Had he said to the conspirators, "if you guys want to go ahead with this, I want no further involvement with it because it's not worth he risk" blah blah blah. Dean did not do any of that, presidents sometimes get bad ideas about what they want done, and the president's men must protect the president from himself, if necessary.
John Dean, desk officer of the Watergate coverup
Last edited by mofford; 07-04-2014 at 12:33 AM..
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