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What I basucally mean is even though the US did do some things to get ready for war they were in no way ready to fight a two front war in 1941.
Together with the British they were. In May 1940, they could only assist in the desert with boots on the ground as a huge amphibious force was not ready. That would change fast. Once the southern coast of the Med was secure matters would be rather easier. Italy would not have declared war if the USA was involved from May 1940. Italians would have been in Libya, out of the war, and US/UK troops occupying Vichy territory.
"There was NO all out shooting naval war. We saw no US battleships or carriers around the UK or the Med."
There was never going to be all out shooting because the Germans had a small navy that was blockaded by the British and they only had about 36 U-Boats.
You wrote the US navy was at war with Germany. It was not.
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"You should read and understand what I wrote. The British could raise 45 million men. It was equipping them that was the problems. The Australians were not in Australia quivering. They were actually used in the desert and Crete. Why would they wait at home for the Japanese who had not declared war! "
Its hard for me to take anything you write seriously when you make comments like this! The entire British population was under 45 million, so how in the world were they going to draft 45 million? Delusional.
Do you ever get a point, or do you deliberately ignore what is written? I will let you know that the British empire had one third of the world's population. The comment came from the Turkish ambassador to the UK.
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"No. A lot was of equipment was repatriated from Dunkirk in the early part of the evacuation. The Canadians took all theirs back via Brittany. The new equipment being made was more modern."
Wrong. They barely evacuated 1/2 of the BEF troops. You're telling me they took the equipment first and left their troops to be Nazi POW's?
An estimated 384,000 BEF went home. They had 12,431 killed - about a third of those were on the troop ship Lancastria. 14,070 wounded men were evacuated home and 41,030 were taken prisoner.
The vast majority of the trained BEF troops were assigned to other duties.
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"36,000 fought the Italians taking 130,000 prisoner. There was 100,000 troops to defend Egypt, Sudan and Palestine. In Dec 1940 126,000 Commonwealth troops arrived in Egypt from Britain, Australia, New Zealand and India."
First of all, there were only 100,000 combined British-Commonwealth forces. The Commonwealth forces weren't extra, they were inclusive in that figure.
First of all I am 100% correct. By late 1942 there were 250,000 Commonwealth troops in North Africa. They were the first to use the US Sherman tank in combat.
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My larger point is that 100,000 is a drop in the bucket. The British were reduced to fighting battles of that size. They weren't capable of entering larger theaters requiring 1 million+ troops. That is what a European invasion required.
They were fully capable, they could raise 45 million men. It was equipping them that was the problem.
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"Not if the Germans attack the USSR, was clear."you didn't get it. If the Germans decided to invade the USSR the defence in the west would be weak."
No crap. But that wasn't the premise of this argument. The premise was that Hitler goes to war with the U.S. and Britain, and never invades the Soviet Union. You are trying to move the goalposts on me.
It was obvious. If the Germans decided to invade the USSR a UK/US force would be waiting to take advantage of the weakened western flank. That was obvious. They would make them think hard about undertaking such a crass move.
Together with the British they were. In May 1940, they could only assist in the desert with boots on the ground as a huge amphibious force was not ready. That would change fast. Once the southern coast of the Med was secure matters would be rather easier. Italy would not have declared war if the USA was involved from May 1940. Italians would have been in Libya, out of the war, and US/UK troops occupying Vichy territory.
I still believe the US was not ready for all out war in 1941. It took to mid year 1943 before the Army was close to full strenth and the Navy and Air force were not yet at full strenth. They were just not prepared in 1941. Ron
What I basucally mean is even though the US did do some things to get ready for war they were in no way ready to fight a two front war in 1941. As we know its takes time to build up forces and the US did not really get it into gear until they got in the war. Then they really got it in gear. Ron
I'll disagree. You say "the US did do some things" as if we were going less than full pace, then suddenly picked it up a notch after Pearl Harbor. I will reiterate that the U.S. began its draft in September, 1940, over 1 year before we formally entered the war. From September, 1940 forward, we were full steam ahead in preparation for war. Had we entered the war earlier, it would have done nothing to speed up this process other than starting the process a few months earlier. The rate of mobilization would have been the same. It still would have taken the same amount of time to build up forces to the point they were in 1942.
I will also restate an earlier point I made that the U.S. Army was extremely small in September, 1940. We started with barely 200,000 troops. You can only draft so many troops per year, so it took a long time to reach 2 million troops. By comparison, when the British began drafting in 1939, they had about 400,000 troops. So the British Army was twice as large as the U.S. Army to begin with, and had a 1 year head start in the draft. Also by comparison, the French had about 5 million troops in 1940 since they began drafting much earlier.
The Germans began conscription in 1935 and started with only 100,000 troops. It took them until 1939 to reach 2 million troops. The Germans were going full steam ahead. This just illustrates my point of how long it takes to build such large forces.
I'll disagree. You say "the US did do some things" as if we were going less than full pace, then suddenly picked it up a notch after Pearl Harbor. I will reiterate that the U.S. began its draft in September, 1940, over 1 year before we formally entered the war. From September, 1940 forward, we were full steam ahead in preparation for war. Had we entered the war earlier, it would have done nothing to speed up this process other than starting the process a few months earlier. The rate of mobilization would have been the same. It still would have taken the same amount of time to build up forces to the point they were in 1942.
I will also restate an earlier point I made that the U.S. Army was extremely small in September, 1940. We started with barely 200,000 troops. You can only draft so many troops per year, so it took a long time to reach 2 million troops. By comparison, when the British began drafting in 1939, they had about 400,000 troops. So the British Army was twice as large as the U.S. Army to begin with, and had a 1 year head start in the draft. Also by comparison, the French had about 5 million troops in 1940 since they began drafting much earlier.
The Germans began conscription in 1935 and started with only 100,000 troops. It took them until 1939 to reach 2 million troops. The Germans were going full steam ahead. This just illustrates my point of how long it takes to build such large forces.
I have to kindly disagree on some here. Yes the US did start drafting before Pearl Harbor but they were not going full steam at it and most of the US still wanted to stay out of the war. Once Pearl Harbor came most men wanted to fight and they were running to get joined up and all things war related picked up alot. And the building of the war machines really picked up after Pearl. I usually see a figure of about 1.6 million in the US armed forces on Dec 7th 1941 but that was all services not just the army. The army actually peaked in 1945 at 8.3 million and that included combat troops , service troops and the army air force troops. The US had no intentions of building up forces anywhere near 12.3 million until we declared war on Japan and Germany. I dont mean to debate you about it I am just saying the US really picked it up more after war was declared on Japan and Germany. I agree they had picked it up before Dec 7th 1941 but not full speed like they did after Dec 7th 1941. Thats basically all I am saying. Ron
I have to kindly disagree on some here. Yes the US did start drafting before Pearl Harbor but they were not going full steam at it
The US planned it very well. They gradually enlisted men from the factories. As the production was ready enough then they could take men from production into the forces. Women started to take the place of many of men in the factories.
You wrote the US navy was at war with Germany. It was not.
Do you ever get a point, or do you deliberately ignore what is written? I will let you know that the British empire had one third of the world's population. The comment came from the Turkish ambassador to the UK.
An estimated 384,000 BEF went home. They had 12,431 killed - about a third of those were on the troop ship Lancastria. 14,070 wounded men were evacuated home and 41,030 were taken prisoner.
The vast majority of the trained BEF troops were assigned to other duties.
First of all I am 100% correct. By late 1942 there were 250,000 Commonwealth troops in North Africa. They were the first to use the US Sherman tank in combat.
They were fully capable, they could raise 45 million men. It was equipping them that was the problem.
It was obvious. If the Germans decided to invade the USSR a UK/US force would be waiting to take advantage of the weakened western flank. That was obvious. They would make them think hard about undertaking such a crass move.
Please pat attention and get points.
"You wrote the US navy was at war with Germany. It was not."
The U.S. was unofficially involved in naval warfare with Germany before December, 1941. That is a fact.
"Do you ever get a point, or do you deliberately ignore what is written? I will let you know that the British empire had one third of the world's population. The comment came from the Turkish ambassador to the UK. "
If they couldn't equip 45 million soldiers, so what is the point here? The U.S. could field 45 million troops too if they included everyone and their grandmothers.
"An estimated 384,000 BEF went home. They had 12,431 killed - about a third of those were on the troop ship Lancastria. 14,070 wounded men were evacuated home and 41,030 were taken prisoner.
The vast majority of the trained BEF troops were assigned to other duties."
No disagreement there. My point is that they abandoned most of their equipment at Dunkirk in exchange for lives. It was also the BEF's best equipment in their inventory. That huge loss of equipment took time to replace.
"First of all I am 100% correct. By late 1942 there were 250,000 Commonwealth troops in North Africa. They were the first to use the US Sherman tank in combat. "
First you said North Africa AND the Middle East. Now you are saying just North Africa. You keep moving the goalposts back and forth. I don't believe any numbers you give.
As it pertains specifically to Egypt, the combined British and Commonwealth forces only numbered 65,000. They fought over 100,000 Italians. I challenge you to find any source that refutes this.
"They were fully capable, they could raise 45 million men. It was equipping them that was the problem. "
What difference does it make if they cannot equip them? Isn't that the point?
"It was obvious. If the Germans decided to invade the USSR a UK/US force would be waiting to take advantage of the weakened western flank. That was obvious. They would make them think hard about undertaking such a crass move."
Isn't that what happened in reality? The Germans were facing 5 million French/British on one border and 5 million Soviets on the other border. That wasn't enough to deter them.
"Please pat attention and get points."
Laughable. When your points don't make sense I am supposed to pay attention and get them.
I have to kindly disagree on some here. Yes the US did start drafting before Pearl Harbor but they were not going full steam at it and most of the US still wanted to stay out of the war. Once Pearl Harbor came most men wanted to fight and they were running to get joined up and all things war related picked up alot. And the building of the war machines really picked up after Pearl. I usually see a figure of about 1.6 million in the US armed forces on Dec 7th 1941 but that was all services not just the army. The army actually peaked in 1945 at 8.3 million and that included combat troops , service troops and the army air force troops. The US had no intentions of building up forces anywhere near 12.3 million until we declared war on Japan and Germany. I dont mean to debate you about it I am just saying the US really picked it up more after war was declared on Japan and Germany. I agree they had picked it up before Dec 7th 1941 but not full speed like they did after Dec 7th 1941. Thats basically all I am saying. Ron
Ok I see your points. I just think you're overestimating how much of a jumpstart we would have gotten. Had we entered the war in June, 1940 as opposed to Dec., 1941, we would have started from ground zero with a much smaller army numbering only 200,000 troops. In reality, we did not enter formally until Dec., 1941, but we had already begun the process of building up for war for 1.5 years earlier. Even if it was not "full steam ahead", we started from a much better position in Dec. 1941 than if we entered in June, 1940.
Had we entered in June, 1940, it would have been full steam ahead, but it would have been a much longer journey. So when you say we were ill prepared for war in Dec., 1941, what do you think it would be like in June, 1940? 200,000 troops is barely enough to defend the homeland.
You are assuming that the USA could not have been up to seam no earlier than it did irrespective of when it entered WW2. In Dec 1941 it was not full steam ahead for the USA. It took the USA quite a time to get into the ground war. They immediately fought at sea, the only way they could and even then it took some time. Similar to the British in 1939, however the British were fighting at sea on day one as a large part of their navy was not wiped out. If the USA had entered the war in May/June 1940 they would have been up to steam far, far earlier.
The U.S. was unofficially involved in naval warfare with Germany before December, 1941. That is a fact."
The odd skirmish at sea is not a full blown naval war.
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"Do you ever get a point, or do you deliberately ignore what is written? I will let you know that the British empire had one third of the world's population. The comment came from the Turkish ambassador to the UK. "
If they couldn't equip 45 million soldiers, so what is the point here? The U.S. could field 45 million troops too if they included everyone and their grandmothers.
The British could raise 45 million men, not grandpops.
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"An estimated 384,000 BEF went home. They had 12,431 killed - about a third of those were on the troop ship Lancastria. 14,070 wounded men were evacuated home and 41,030 were taken prisoner.
The vast majority of the trained BEF troops were assigned to other duties."
No disagreement there. My point is that they abandoned most of their equipment at Dunkirk in exchange for lives. It was also the BEF's best equipment in their inventory. That huge loss of equipment took time to replace.
The equipment was far from the best, mainly of WW2 design. The latest was being produced by the factories 24/7 - the UKs industry was the size of Germany's. Much of it did get back to the UK. What was left behind was largely destroyed.
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"First of all I am 100% correct. By late 1942 there were 250,000 Commonwealth troops in North Africa. They were the first to use the US Sherman tank in combat. "
First you said North Africa AND the Middle East. Now you are saying just North Africa. You keep moving the goalposts back and forth. I don't believe any numbers you give.
As it pertains specifically to Egypt, the combined British and Commonwealth forces only numbered 65,000. They fought over 100,000 Italians. I challenge you to find any source that refutes this.
I gave you the figures.
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"They were fully capable, they could raise 45 million men. It was equipping them that was the problem. "
What difference does it make if they cannot equip them? Isn't that the point?
To equip them the US used the US factories as well. The US gave the UK permission to directly approach US industry and by-pass then US government. That is how the Mustang came about.
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"It was obvious. If the Germans decided to invade the USSR a UK/US force would be waiting to take advantage of the weakened western flank. That was obvious. They would make them think hard about undertaking such a crass move."
Isn't that what happened in reality? The Germans were facing 5 million French/British on one border and 5 million Soviets on the other border. That wasn't enough to deter them.
The German were not facing 5 million Soviets, They were at peace with them forming pact. The Germans feared two front war. In 1939/40 it was a one front war. They only had a two front war, NA and the USSR from June 1941 onwards. Germany had a full on two front war on both sides of their country from June 1944 onwards. Once they were fighting a full on two front war they collapsed quickly.
Please pay attention and get the points. At least try and use some common sense.
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