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Ok I see your points. I just think you're overestimating how much of a jumpstart we would have gotten. Had we entered the war in June, 1940 as opposed to Dec., 1941, we would have started from ground zero with a much smaller army numbering only 200,000 troops. In reality, we did not enter formally until Dec., 1941, but we had already begun the process of building up for war for 1.5 years earlier. Even if it was not "full steam ahead", we started from a much better position in Dec. 1941 than if we entered in June, 1940.
Had we entered in June, 1940, it would have been full steam ahead, but it would have been a much longer journey. So when you say we were ill prepared for war in Dec., 1941, what do you think it would be like in June, 1940? 200,000 troops is barely enough to defend the homeland.
Yes I basically agree with you as 200,000 was not going to do much even to protect the homeland. Ron
You are assuming that the USA could not have been up to seam no earlier than it did irrespective of when it entered WW2. In Dec 1941 it was not full steam ahead for the USA. It took the USA quite a time to get into the ground war. They immediately fought at sea, the only way they could and even then it took some time. Similar to the British in 1939, however the British were fighting at sea on day one as a large part of their navy was not wiped out. If the USA had entered the war in May/June 1940 they would have been up to steam far, far earlier.
I never assumed or said that. What I said was that the U.S. had a small army, navy, and air force in May/June, 1940. Had we abruptly entered the war, we would have been fighting with 200,000 troops. That is barely enough to occupy an island. Not enough to invade Europe or defeat the entire Wermacht.
It would have taken time to draft troops, build planes and ships, and build factories, no matter what pace we went about it. If you think the U.S. would have built a 5 million man army overnight you are living in a fantasy world. I know this is difficult for you to comprehend, but there is a difference between starting with only 200,000 troops (as we would have in May/June, 1940), and starting with 1+ million troops (as we did in Dec. 1941). If you cannot see the advantages of the latter, I cannot help you.
You yourself admitted it took the U.S. 2 years to get into the ground war from the time of Pearl Harbor. Do you think we weren't going full-steam ahead after Pearl Harbor? If you consider that the U.S. began drafting 1.5 years before entering the war, we really took 3.5 years to get into the ground war.
The Nazi's took 4 years and annexing Austria to build a 2 million man army from the time of the 1935 Nuremberg rallies to the Invasion of Poland. They took another 2 years to reach 5 million troops. This illustrates how long it takes to draft troops. The Nazi's were going "full-steam ahead" from 1935 forward.
The odd skirmish at sea is not a full blown naval war.
The British could raise 45 million men, not grandpops.
The equipment was far from the best, mainly of WW2 design. The latest was being produced by the factories 24/7 - the UKs industry was the size of Germany's. Much of it did get back to the UK. What was left behind was largely destroyed.
I gave you the figures.
To equip them the US used the US factories as well. The US gave the UK permission to directly approach US industry and by-pass then US government. That is how the Mustang came about.
The German were not facing 5 million Soviets, They were at peace with them forming pact. The Germans feared two front war. In 1939/40 it was a one front war. They only had a two front war, NA and the USSR from June 1941 onwards.Germany had a full on two front war on both sides of their country from June 1944 onwards.Once they were fighting a full on two front war they collapsed quickly.
Please pay attention and get the points. At least try and use some common sense.
You still don't get it. If the U.S. entered the war in May/June, 1940, the Germans would be fighting a ONE FRONT war. The U.S./Britain would be facing the full weight of the Wermacht, which at the time, was about 4-5 million troops. Do you deny this?
Stop trying to move the goal posts around. You keep switching time frames and adding future events to muddy the waters. Barbarossa did not occur until 1 year later in June, 1941. If Germany was still fighting a western front, why would they invade the U.S.S.R.? Your argument relies on the faulty assumption that Hitler invades the USSR no matter what on June, 1941.
You 45 million figure is laughable and delusional. Just stop.
Last edited by Nolefan34; 07-18-2014 at 06:22 PM..
Yes I basically agree with you as 200,000 was not going to do much even to protect the homeland. Ron
THE US air force and nay, which were expanding by the day, would be very handy indeed. US Troops could be under the wing of UK until big enough which would be sooner than later.
The UK and US securing North Africa, which they could have done, would have changed the complexion of WW2 without doubt.
Your argument relies on the faulty assumption that Hitler invades the USSR no matter what on June, 1941.
You 45 million figure is laughable and delusional. Just stop.
You need to learn to count. The British empire covered over 1/4 of the world's population. You suffer from the problem of a lot of Americans in thinking the British Empire was only the British Isles. The 45 million was stated by the Turkish ambassador and the reason they concluded Germany cannot win so kept away from Germany. The British were not short of men, just equipping and training them, and that includes the top brass, was the problem.
My argument is that Germany probably would not have invaded the USSR if the US had got in earlier and North Africa was secured. Also Japan would not have attacked the British Empire and the USA leaving a lot of US navy available.
You need to learn to count. The British empire covered over 1/4 of the world's population. You suffer from the problem of a lot of Americans in thinking the British Empire was only the British Isles. The 45 million was stated by the Turkish ambassador and the reason they concluded Germany cannot win so kept away from Germany. The British were not short of men, just equipping and training them, and that includes the top brass, was the problem.
My argument is that Germany probably would not have invaded the USSR if the US had got in earlier and North Africa was secured. Also Japan would not have attacked the British Empire and the USA leaving a lot of US navy available.
Like I had said before there is no way on earth the British Empire could raise 45 million troops. The British did have manpower problems in 44 and 45 as it was tuff for them to keep its 2.9 million army up to snuff. I dont care what the Turkish Ambassador said ther was no where near 45 million troops in the Empire. The British army was the largest in their empire at 2.9 million and then India had about 2.2 million. There were no more trained troops other then some smaller armies from Canada and Austrailia and neither of them were over 1 million. The troops were not there and they could not have trained another 5 million let alone 45 million. Dont you think they would have trained and equipped more troops if they could have ? Its an unreal fantasy to think the empire could have raised 45 million trained troops and you need to understand that. Ron
You need to learn to count. The British empire covered over 1/4 of the world's population. You suffer from the problem of a lot of Americans in thinking the British Empire was only the British Isles. The 45 million was stated by the Turkish ambassador and the reason they concluded Germany cannot win so kept away from Germany. The British were not short of men, just equipping and training them, and that includes the top brass, was the problem.
My argument is that Germany probably would not have invaded the USSR if the US had got in earlier and North Africa was secured. Also Japan would not have attacked the British Empire and the USA leaving a lot of US navy available.
Nonsense. Why were these 45 million never drafted? Why did the British army only have 2 million troops in 1940? Why did the British army never eclipse 5 million by 1945? You are living in a fairy tale. And even if you were right, if they cannot equip them whats the difference? The U.S. could draft 45 million grannies, but we couldn't equip or feed them all. Only a limited number of troops could be fed and equipped.
I agree that Germany would not invade the USSR when they did had the Allies invaded Europe beforehand. That was my earlier point. But how would barely 2 million Allied troops defeat the full weight of the Wermacht of about 4-5 million? Again, the Allies would have needed to launch a massive invasion of Europe before June, 1941 to prevent Barbarossa from occurring when it did. The tiny U.S. army of 200,000 troops would not have expanded fast enough to produce a large enough invasion force that early. Had we invaded prematurely with inadequate troops, it would be disastrous.
How would securing Africa impact whether or not Hitler invaded the USSR? Africa was irrelevant to events in Europe. Japan attacking the British/U.S. is equally irrelevant. The Japanese attacked the U.S. because we cut off their oil supply. They faced the choice of either attacking the U.S. or discontinuing their war in China. It had nothing to do with the British.
Nonsense. Why were these 45 million never drafted?
I am repeating the same thing time and time again. 45 million could not be recruited because they needed equipping and training, which is an horrendous task equipping an army of a million never mind 45 million. But 45 million were available. Men was not the problem, it was equipment. Please read what I write.
If the US was in the war in May 1940, the USSR would not have been attacked meaning Japan would not have attacked the British and USA. This mean the large navy and rapidly increasing in size air forces, with heavy bombers, would start to make a difference, until the land armies are of a decent size. The US and the UK initially could have easily secured the southern Med coast.
North Africa was not irrelevant to events in Europe. Securing the southern Med coast means the Med can be an allied lake and the oil in the Middle East secured and away from Germany, who were desperately short of oil. Hitler wanted to circle the Med. Securing the Med gives an option to land anywhere with little hindrance. Mesopotamia plan, etc.
If the US had joined in May 1940, I doubt Italy would have joined Axis, hence we have no North Africa, no Taranto (therefore, what is it going to happen at Pearl Harbor?), no Tunisia, no Torch, no Sicily and no Italian Campaign, that means A LOT of forces.
It also means roughly 500,000 tons of ships NOT sunk by Italian submarines in the Atlantic (BETASOM), it means perhaps no Yugoslavia hence no Tito?
It also means 230,000 men less in Russia (CSIR then ARMIR), it means even more ships dedicated to fight U-boot (in this field Germans could have done MUCH MUCH MUCH more by the way), it means more men and airplane against Germany and perhaps it means that British possessions in the Far East are far better defended, it means that Japan might have never attacked considering that US forces would have been much readier.
It changes A LOT, just see how much the small, little and insignificant Italy changes without entering in war, let alone Japan.
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